THAT Animeblog

1:39 AM lelangir: you there?

1:40 AM Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: cool, I need help thinking through this post

Ghostlightning: how goes?

okay

lelangir: so from what I’ve seen, Kannagi’s reception is that the plot sucks

but I’m arguing that it doesn

1:41 AM and so I was thinking

Ghostlightning: glad to help because i have a long term project that i need your assistance in a big way

okay

lelangir: what is the relationship between plot and genre?

lemme email you what i have so far

Ghostlightning: fire

lelangir: ok

Ghostlightning: my quick impression: the plot is generic, but it doesn’t make it bad

1:42 AM lelangir: hmmm

Ghostlightning: how many unique plots are there anyway?

lelangir: well kannagi is interesting

Ghostlightning: the disconnect that people feel

i think

lelangir: you could say its plot in and of itself is a double entendre

are we thinking of it as social commentary?

incidental?

or…typical harem crap?

Ghostlightning: is because teh execution in the chemistry is SO GOOD

lelangir: the latter, then there is no plot

the former, the plot is VERY intricate

1:43 AM Ghostlightning: but at the expense of a rushed conclusion, that seems forced

lelangir: and so the harm mush is predicated on its “incidental social commentary”

Ghostlightning: making people say: bad plot

lelangir: hehe but wiat

its not rushed

Ghostlightning: about what you’re saying:

lelangir: because the “lack of plot” was the plot itself

Ghostlightning: but there is a plot:

boy meets girl

girl has big reveal: she’s a goddess

conflict: IS SHE REALLY?

1:44 AM lelangir: I think the fanservice superficial plot is more vehicular to the metaphorical content

Ghostlightning: consequence of conflict: complication of ordinary high school life

lelangir: in the anime, what we see first and foremost is Nagi years ago

Ghostlightning: the metaphorical content does not equal plot

lelangir: clad in traditional clothing as goddess

hmm

Ghostlightning: plot can be ‘bad’ but metaphorical content can be awesome

1:45 AM kannagi’s metaphorical content is awesome imo

plot is ordinary

not a value judgment

lelangir: but the metaphorical content is so well lined up that I dont think it cant be anything but plot

Ghostlightning: hmmm

lelangir: the aspects of Kannagi that are mainstream “broadcasted” are whats incidental

Ghostlightning: let’s distinguish the metaphorical content

lelangir: IMO the point of Kannagi was Nagi’s idolatry

1:46 AM and no one picks this up

Ghostlightning: i would approach it as a “reading”

lelangir: that’s because they’re too caught up in what you define as “plot”

but I think here it’s switched

Ghostlightning: and not as a statement against those who dismiss kannagi

an xist reading of kannagi

1:47 AM lelangir: that’s good, since we know it has to make money

Ghostlightning: the rest of the sphere are STUCK in their formalist reading methodology

lelangir: and it has

industry, etc.

Ghostlightning: plot, character, etc

forms

structure

lelangir: well

its metaphors and “plot” are coextensive

Ghostlightning: so they can argue good plot, bad plot

1:48 AM and you can read it from a framework

of religion/idolatry

lelangir: but while its “plot” seems stupid and “inert” (as in not going anywhere, slice of life), this is precisely what propels its metaphorical content, nagi’s search for idolatry

Ghostlightning: if it were me, i would downplay plot ‘valuation’

lelangir: i dont get it

Ghostlightning: the commentary will appropriate your reading

and then people will use your arguments

1:49 AM to say that kannagi has a good plot lol

lelangir: I still think its metaphorical content is sufficient enough to upset the canon of plot

Ghostlightning: okay

please explain

‘canon of plot’

lelangir: well that “plot” is superficial

1:50 AM like you said, boy meets girl, etc.

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: vs. idolatry, “metaphores”

which constitutes “plot”?

is plot the same as “watching”?

Ghostlightning: okay, you in your reading will re-valuate formal plot elements, vs metaphorical content

lelangir: actually yeah…

plot is watching

hmm

1:51 AM well we can then say that kannagi also has a secondary, subtle plot

Ghostlightning: plot, strictly speaking is a formal element

lelangir: to supplement its “fanservice”

Ghostlightning: the sequencing of the narrative, the conflict and resolution

lelangir: (double entendre ,pun intended)

Ghostlightning: haha

lelangir: yes

so in your definition, my view also works

1:52 AM Ghostlightning: yes

only that i’m more comfortable that the content is distinguished from plot/structure

the plot merely ‘frames’ the content

‘how things happen’

the content is… what the events ‘mean’

lelangir: in very…uh..”non post-modern” situations?

1:53 AM Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: i guess cowboybebop, faulkner, etc. complicate that

Ghostlightning: non-postmodern

formalism sucks, imo - only that it is very useful in the study of craft

lelangir: hmm so now I enjoy thinking of Kannagi simply as having two coextensive plots

1:54 AM one just more metaphorical than the other

Ghostlightning: that can work too!

i like it

lelangir: ooooo, the superficiality serves as a framework for its metaphor

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: ok that’s good

solved that

sheesh, it’s sooooo much easier talking it through with someone

Ghostlightning: yes

1:55 AM i have mechafetish irl for this, or rather, he has me

lelangir: my uni actually has a class on anime next semester lol

Ghostlightning: whoa

lelangir: this is going to sound arrogant, but I think the blogosphere would still be wayyy more insightful

Ghostlightning: what’s the content? not history i hope

or genre surveying

1:56 AM lelangir: oh lol

Ghostlightning: yes, but of course it would

lelangir: i was about to say that the class is probably more focused on history

Ghostlightning: yes, an introduction to the medium

you will be smarter than everyone

it will be hell

i remember my good friend, when he took an elective on SF

lelangir: and it’d be boring ’cause it wouldn’t view currently airing shows

so its not as “cultural” or memetic w/e

1:57 AM copyright issues, etc.

Ghostlightning: oh lol

he said to the class: “you cretins, i am erudite! i read more science fiction books than all of you have read books!”

lelangir: uh huh

1:58 AM Ghostlightning: so i anticipate that you will be in a similar spot

lelangir: lol i’m not well-read….or at least as not as I’d like to be

I wish I were more in tune with japanese history

Ghostlightning: in relation to anime

lelangir: so my aniblogging had much more substance

or foundation, etc.

Ghostlightning: you’d know more than anyone in the class

but it still may be worth taking

1:59 AM lelangir: ’cause the general populace is more attuned to viewing anime microscopically

Ghostlightning: because if the teacher is good, it will be very good

lelangir: which is why there’s all this talk about “viewing things deeply”

Ghostlightning: and you’ll be able to influence her

lelangir: whereas I enjoy looking at anime from a bird’s eye view

Ghostlightning: and contribute to education in some way

lelangir: intertextually, vis-a-vis one another and cultures, positions of viewing

I think the prof. had a website

he looked cool

2:00 AM but not a PhD

so i dunno

Ghostlightning: yes, that’s why i’m not so inclined to do so

because you’re around lol

you do it better than me

lelangir: nobody likes reading those posts though lol

Ghostlightning: i can play off your posts, etc. without having to lay foundations

lelangir: oh and the lucky star english dub is soooo interesting

they retain the japanese honorifics

Ghostlightning: o rly? tell me

2:01 AM lelangir: and even phonetics differ

Ghostlightning: ah i think i read a tweet or note of yours

lelangir: i’ve noticed that in recent dubs, they keep the flapped R

and in LS, some keep the flapped R while others anglicize it

crazy

Ghostlightning: whoa

lelangir: and there’s the whole thing about trying to sound like the original VA

Ghostlightning: i wonder how they discussed this

lelangir: yeah

2:02 AM it’s related to how its steeped in otaku culture

Ghostlightning: well, it may be just trying to appeal to the fan of subs

lelangir: I’m sure

yeah

I’d have to read into suzumiya haruhi sales in USA

as LS is definitely its successor (or giant advertisement)

2:03 AM Ghostlightning: your post reads good, so far

2:04 AM lelangir: that was the 2nd thing i needed help on

the relationship between style/genre and plot/progression

Ghostlightning: okay, frame your need

lelangir: it

it’s hard…hmmmm

I’m conceptualizing this as….

a hierarchy between the two, genre and plot

2:05 AM which “contains” the other

which has more prevalence

Ghostlightning: ohhhh

hohoho

lelangir: =p you have answer!

Ghostlightning: people i think choose subjects by genre first

lelangir: definitely

Ghostlightning: plot is secondary

lelangir: in terms of the viewer

2:06 AM Ghostlightning: but plot can ‘ruin’ the experience or ‘elevate’t

it

i think

lelangir: yeah

one sec…diagram time

Ghostlightning: characters and settings can elevate the subject

but plot is more destructive (a badly plotted story)

2:07 AM a good plot, can elevate unlikable characters (but not uninteresting)

i need examples

08th MS Team

boy meets girl

capulets and montagues

war

2:08 AM (subplots are: coming of age, shaking off one’s past - shinigami, hopes in wartime)

the plot(s) is/are ordinary

2:09 AM lelangir: http://i44.tinypic.com/219au7n.jpg

yeah, subplots

Ghostlightning: the setting is awesome, a great romantic sweep

lelangir: but wait that’s just what we said

metaphorical content, subplot, secondary plot, etc.

2:10 AM style

comedy, romance, drama, suspense

Ghostlightning: is metaphorical content in kannagi a subplot?

lelangir: yeah

or so I think

Ghostlightning: or is it a “sub” in terms of depth, but not necessarily subordinate in value

it is ‘beneath the surface’

lelangir: former

2:11 AM only in depth

all kinds of plot being equal

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: epistomologically equal i suppose

or however we phrase it

Ghostlightning: subplots in kannagi: jin (not)
finding himself in art

2:12 AM tsugumi’s trust in jin (relationship)

lelangir: equal in form but not in effect

those are more rhetorical

for fanservice

Ghostlightning: zange’s competition with nagi

lelangir: at least the cliche childhood friend thing

hmm

2:13 AM so this suggests subplots are hierarchical

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: zange/nagi is really just a contribution to nagi’s idolatry

christianity vs. shintoism

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: ok, so that’s just a complex form of story-telling

2:14 AM I still don’t get it….its the 2nd paragraph of the article

Ghostlightning: rather, it’s just the use of forms

2:15 AM lelangir: i was trying to theorize a 2nd form of plot vis-a-vis genre

Ghostlightning: this one: Kannagi isn’t so easily reducible to polarized styles precisely because of its plot. On the one hand, we could say that the plot functions as an adhesive that produces sensibility within the anime, but this perspective pigeonholes us back in the thought that genre is linearly coextensive with plot, which is to say that distinct sections of the progression of the story will be accompanied by correlating genres - comedy, drama, slice of life, and so forth. When we view Kannagi this way, we already set an expectation that

?

lelangir: yeah

that genre is linearly coextensive with plot

or….

and that’s where i went blak

blank

Ghostlightning: explain ‘coextensive’

lelangir: in tandem

1:1

2:16 AM Ghostlightning: i see

lelangir: http://i44.tinypic.com/219au7n.jpg

Ghostlightning: it isn’t i think

lelangir: me neither

so what’s the second form?

Ghostlightning: but it can be, in a contingent way

lelangir: and that’s where I thought the heirarchy of plot/genre was upset

Ghostlightning: particular to specific works

2:17 AM lelangir: ok

yeah

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: so which form does kannagi utilize

I’m just having a hard time articulating this

Ghostlightning: i can imagine

lelangir: the first case is how plot is a glue that connects genre

the second is how everything is already cohesive in the first place

but it’s not visible

it takes something more to realize it

Ghostlightning: connects genre to what?

lelangir: to each other

this is why people are like “emo jin is stupid”

2:18 AM its not because it’s directly related to plot

emo jin isn’t irrelevant at all

poorly directed perhaps

but I construed viewer displease as “i dont get how this has to do with anything”

2:19 AM Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: how comedy is disparate to drama

but….are they really disparate at all?

Ghostlightning: they go together well when done expertly

the comedy in kannagi is done expertly imo

lelangir: ok ooooo

so i just had it….

Ghostlightning: the drama - the jury’s still out

2:20 AM lelangir: when things aren’t viewed as disparate, it becomes hierarchical, one becomes the vehicle for the other

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: and plot isn’t the railway anymore

plot isn’t the cohesive force…

it’s like a product now

or something

Ghostlightning: wait

lelangir: yeah that’s not right…

Ghostlightning: plot, formerly is the railway to deliver the laughs, the tears etc?

2:21 AM i can agree with that

but that’s not necessarily subverted

by the metaphorical content

which is ’srs bsns’

neither necessarily comedic or tragic

2:22 AM dramatic

lelangir: http://i41.tinypic.com/2hzibmu.jpg

Ghostlightning: i don’t get the second example (the line below)

2:23 AM lelangir: that doesnt make sense

what i posted

neither do i

the first line does

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but i feel like there is a counter example

Ghostlightning: plot is the vehicle yes

lelangir: but i need a way to view genres not as spatially distant

and the only way is to make it hierarchical

2:24 AM not on the same plane

then, something,the glue, doesn’t “connect”

Ghostlightning: the points along the plotline can be comedic or dramatic in themselves, but there will be cases where the characters or other elements produce the emotional effects

lelangir: it just “produces”

Ghostlightning: when points, are ‘twists’

like code geass

2:25 AM twists are funny, ludicrous, etc

whereas kannagi’s reveal

lelangir: hmm

Ghostlightning: that she’s not sure of her divinity

is dramatic only because her character made so much of it

2:26 AM not that dramatic in itself

2:27 AM or, let’s take a big plot twist example:

“LUKE, I AM YOUR FATHER”

is that in itself dramatic?

or is it made so by the reaction:

“NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!”

dramatic = sad

2:28 AM opposite of comedy

never mind the narm/unitntentional comedy of the scene

lelangir: ok

2:29 AM though…im still having a hard time seeing how that contributes to the relationship between genre/plot

or rather

a specific type of rel.

Ghostlightning: use sets

2:30 AM all genres have plots

lelangir: what I parced from vader example was that we cannot separate the event and the reception

the reception “enacts” the event

or at least amplifies it

I think even if Vader said “I am HIS father” directly to the audience in a soliloquy

the audience would be ‘OMFGWTFBBQHAX’

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: would still be*

Ghostlightning: i agree

2:31 AM it’s still dramatic

lelangir: hmm lol lemme ask

do you get what i’m trying to get at?

the two specific kinds of relationships between genre/plot

Ghostlightning: genre and plot relationship

lelangir: in the first, plot is all-encompassing

it contains genre

Ghostlightning: ok

lelangir: it acts as an adhesive

so the 2nd must upset the 1st

2:32 AM the 2nd is a counter theory

Ghostlightning: okay

lelangir: but i cannot articulate in such a way that it makes sense

Ghostlightning: but to say that, would mean…

that genre can make plot irrelevant?

i sense the sense in it… but

lelangir: yes….when there is no plot

hidamari sketch

2:33 AM lucky star

Ghostlightning: ahhh

yes

lelangir: minami ke (1st season)

Ghostlightning: but kannagi has a plot, yes?

lelangir: mmhm…subplots too, as we established

Ghostlightning: two, arguably right?

lelangir: yup

2:34 AM Ghostlightning: so it’s difficult to use it an example to prove the counter theory

lelangir: …how so?

Ghostlightning: sort of like, “it works great with lucky star, it works too with kanagi if you read deep enough”

2:35 AM is this what you’re saying now?

lelangir: the fact that “non-plots” exist shouldn’t refute this binary

because it’s not even in the same paradigm

“non-plot” isn’t in the “plot” paradigm

our “plot” paradigm can be constituted of several theories

“non-plots” should be irrelevant here I think

Ghostlightning: ok, list

lelangir: wait…”it works great with lucky star, it works too with kanagi if you read deep enough”

no…hmm…

2:36 AM no, like i said, it cant “work” because that’s a theoretical paradigm shift

apples and oranges

Ghostlightning: or, the enjoyment of kannagi is not shackled by its plot

limited by

its plot

and subplots

lelangir: right

yes

ah yes

2:37 AM shiet

oh god

then what is the rel. between COMEDY and plot????

(needs….to….read….aristotle….nao)

Ghostlightning: hmmm

lelangir: oh shiiiiet

so….is comedy like microplot?

Ghostlightning: again, the events in the plot can be comedic (situational comedy)

lelangir: like a shitload of 4-komas inserted together?

Ghostlightning: or jokes

lelangir: nearly in a nonsequiter fashion?

2:38 AM wait

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: so

have you seen okawari?

Ghostlightning: micro-plots

sorry no

lelangir: hm ok

but yeah you get it

miniami-ke is microplot

a bunch of unrelated microplots

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but okawari is macroplot

one plot per episode

thats why everone hates it

vis-a-vis first season

Ghostlightning: event a, b, punchline event

lelangir: yeah

2:39 AM x6 per ep.

[a, b, punchline][a, b, punchline][a, b, punchline][a, b, punchline]

like a train

Ghostlightning: yeah

lelangir: tangent….hmm

so

Ghostlightning: in ls, through the series of microplots, the value is… getting an intimacy with the characters

2:40 AM lelangir: hm

i dont see how micro/macro affects that

Ghostlightning: they are not ‘developed’ rather, they are revealed

lelangir: …

i dont think there’s any char. dev LS

development nor revealment

Ghostlightning: yes, exactly

lelangir: ok

2:41 AM Ghostlightning: reveal is simply this: no sruprises

how exactly tsundere is kagamin

lelangir: what about I am yuor father?

that’s surprise + revealment

Ghostlightning: how MUCH of an otaku is konata

lelangir: yeah precisely

it’s just amplification

Ghostlightning: yes, as opposed to starwars

2:42 AM the linear plot, twists in a new direction

instead of MUST DESTROY VADER, it becomes MUST SAVE VADER, there is good in him

lelangir: ah

2:43 AM Ghostlightning: from the viewer’s standpoint, there is value in both

one can say ls is entirely exposition

lelangir: yeah

Ghostlightning: but somehow, there is value in that

lelangir: “value”

Ghostlightning: because it is entertaining, funny

2:44 AM lelangir: so….going back again lol

Ghostlightning: value = the utility the viewer experiences from the subject

lelangir: mmh

mmhm

plot is the vehicle for genre

Ghostlightning: so there is value in the experience of watching kannagi, if one ignores the plot

lelangir: plot doesnt discriminate between genre

slice of life is an exception

2:45 AM Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but…i’m concerning people that took plot into account and were disappointed

is there a way to say that their disappointment wasn’t “properly directed”?

Ghostlightning: they were looking for plot, or were forced to look at the plot

2:46 AM nagi pun!

lelangir: that kannagi disrupts the notion that plot is a conduit for genre

lol

Ghostlightning: ‘properly directed’

lelangir: lol…that they were wrong

guy a: “dude this plot sucks”

gu b: “no, you’re just looking at it the wrong way”

guy c: “this different perspective is _____”

Ghostlightning: the game here is that it is foolish to immediately dismiss kannagi

2:47 AM lelangir: right

Ghostlightning: due to what you failed to see

lelangir: but we said that already

that there are subplots

ok

bu..ksalfkjasf

hmmmm

right

so this is where I said that its subplot disrupts “plot” itself

subplot disrupts plot as a conduit for genre

subplot disrupts genre

???

Ghostlightning: no

2:48 AM that’s confusing

lelangir: genre is already overgeneralized

….nice pun?

Ghostlightning: you can simply say, that underneath all this, is an essay on religion (idols, commodification)

2:49 AM and the fact that it was entertaining to watch, makes it awesome

because essays on religion aren’t supposed to be entertaining

lelangir: …but….it’s incidental

perhaps

no….

2:50 AM there’s too much evidence to say it’s incidental..they knew what they were doing

ok

Ghostlightning: yes

it’s not incidental

lelangir: ok, so, all metaphor aside, kannagi is awesome

because it’s funny and has naked DFC’s

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but

its plot sucks

2:51 AM the religion metaphors weren’t properly connected

- or is what we’ve read

but

they were connected

it just wasn’t spoonfed

Ghostlightning: yes, not spoonfed

lelangir: the karoake episode was in fact subplot

it was, in and of itself

it was nagi getting faith

it had to be

it was incidentally or otherwise

because that’s what the metaphor sets up

2:52 AM Ghostlightning: i don’t know what to make of that ep tbqh

lelangir: the metaphor sets it up so everything contributes to the subplot

incidentally or otherwise

Ghostlightning: i know i was entertained

ahhhhhh

yes

wait

lelangir: so it’s really a convenience

Ghostlightning: nagi… wasn’t trying!

zange was forcing it

2:53 AM lelangir: oh shiet bring her into this now lol

hmmmm

from what i remember

Ghostlightning: so nagi, ‘not trying’ by virtue of song choice

lelangir: it was just a double cat fight for jin

ok so that ep was slice of life by nature

Ghostlightning: maybe not not trying, just doing it wrong

yes

2:54 AM but in the context of the idol/god metaphor

lelangir: but….doesn’t everything constitute idolatry?

Ghostlightning: nagi was doing it wrong

lelangir: making friends

she was evensaying how she had to look over her friends

because she’s the goddess of the land

Ghostlightning: doing it wrong

lelangir: formed from the land

Ghostlightning: doing it wrong

lelangir: doing what wrong?

Ghostlightning: the whole time

lelangir: idolatry?

Ghostlightning: taking care of the land

lelangir: ….

Ghostlightning: dealing with the impurities

acting like a goddess

lelangir: ….and that’s the part that confused me in general

2:55 AM Ghostlightning: making friends

this is new to me too

lelangir: what’s interesting

is the hospitality metaphor

Ghostlightning: she had an idea of what she’s supposed to do

lelangir: jin saying “stay here!”

“is my house not good enough?”

Ghostlightning: but she’s doing everything wrong

lelangir: ok

she needed the freaking wand as an excorcism tool

since she lacked power

and that somehow stems from her container

the tree

as opposed to zange

Ghostlightning: figure out the rules, steps required for her to do her mission

lelangir: who is a parasite

2:56 AM but….

Ghostlightning: what did she do right?

lelangir: both have no identity

no memory

remember

the shrine is nameless

nameless god

which makes some weird pun

Ghostlightning: right

lelangir: kannagi, nagi

nagi means “calm”

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: but yeah that’s irrelevant

Ghostlightning: the more i think about it, the direction of your article needs to change

2:57 AM lelangir: or just expand

Ghostlightning: you can do it this way:

enjoying kannagi: ur doin it wrng

lelangir: lol

Ghostlightning: then play off on how nagi is getting everything wrong

and THAT is the plot

lelangir: hm….

Ghostlightning: all of you have been fooled

lelangir: eh

2:58 AM i was going for a general disruption of “plot”

“all ur plot belong to me”

Ghostlightning: or THAT is the point

lelangir: “cuz DIS is reel plot”

Ghostlightning: substitute point for plot

lelangir: ?

Ghostlightning: make plot irrelevant

lelangir: hmmmm

2:59 AM Ghostlightning: while everyone is looking at jin’s emo, it’s nagi’s story after all

her ridiculous failure

lelangir: but what’s the relationship!!!!!????

Ghostlightning: plot and genre?

lelangir: which is the product of the other!!!

yesssss

Ghostlightning: neither!

lelangir: that’s precisely what i was saying

people view them as intrinsically separate

connnected by plot

Ghostlightning: not a cause and effect thing necessarily

3:00 AM lelangir: ok

and thus, the 2nd counter theory

lol

doo doood dooooo listen to my song… guruguru mawaru….

3:01 AM Ghostlightning: wait, whose song is that?

lelangir: from school rumble

means “going in circles” lol

or so I’ve read

Ghostlightning: ah yes

school rumble had plots

a bunch of romance arcs

3:02 AM and harima’s manga career

lelangir: yup

3:03 AM Ghostlightning: ok, are you clear re your article now?

or did i just mess it up for you?

lelangir: I still haven’t come to the conclusion i was searching for

a different relation between plot/genre

wait

Ghostlightning: interdependent

3:04 AM lelangir: i think im obfuscating it for you

microgenre

genre within the same series

shifts from comedy to romance to drama

Ghostlightning: rendering genre meaningless

3:05 AM lelangir: whoa….maybe that’s it

Ghostlightning: or calling for lame portmanteaus like dramedy

lelangir: one sec….

Ghostlightning: brb, waifu calls

3:06 AM lelangir: ok

i’ll keep talkin

so it’s like, microgenres are hierarchical

in kannagi, drama takes a backseat to comedy

they cant be viewed horizontally

3:15 AM Ghostlightning has joined

Pontifus has joined

lelangir: better now?

3:16 AM Ghostlightning: ok

Pontifus: can i close the other one?

lelangir: yeah

sweet we’re good

Ghostlightning: ok

lelangir: ok so the question was

3:17 AM what is the relationship between genre and plot

wait, pontifus, have yuo seen kannagi?

Pontifus: yeah

Ghostlightning: you bastards are keeping me from writing my post (i don’t entirely mind)

lelangir: lol

you’re telling me…

http://i44.tinypic.com/219au7n.jpg

3:18 AM Ghostlightning: this is not going to end well

lelangir: that’s Kannagi, essentially

Pontifus: and, regarding genre and plot, cuchlann would be the one to ask…i don’t really like genre, and i’m trying to make an argument for genre being a superfluous construct (though i haven’t really figured it out yet)

lelangir: yes

Ghostlightning: bwahahahahaha

lelangir: but for all intensive purposes

genre not as discursive

as “style”

“approach”

Ghostlightning: we got to that conclusion too

lelangir: fuck where is that guy

Ghostlightning: after so much wrestling

3:19 AM lelangir: need total superfani jerk circle

Pontifus: what are we calling genre here? comedy?

lelangir: comedy, drama

basically

the distinct elements in kannagi

Pontifus: alright

lelangir: wait up one sec

Pontifus: lol, should i bust out some aristotle?

Ghostlightning: please

save lelangir the trouble

lelangir: lol

3:20 AM go ahead if you want

http://lelangir.dasaku.net/

Pontifus: norton anthology of theory and criticism, GO!

lelangir: the kannagi collection

look at kabitzin’s remarks

he’s like “this sucks, i dont get it, it doesnt make sense”

so why dont the distinct elements make sense?

3:21 AM grrrrr, uguu~

3:22 AM Pontifus: did either of you not like nagi very much?

or am i the only one in the universe?

Ghostlightning: read from a framework of failure, it all makes sense!

lelangir: i liked her

lol

oh jesus…

Ghostlightning: i like her so much more now

lelangir: HELP ME ANSWER MY QUESTION

LISTEN TO MY SONG

Ghostlightning: NAGI, THE ROMANCE OF FAIL

lelangir: fucking UGUU

Pontifus: i didn’t DISlike her, but she didn’t make me fangasm, either

3:23 AM alright, back on topic!

lelangir: right

so

plot is a conduit for intraparadigmatic genre

which is to say

when an anime deploys several genres within the same series

kannagi ie

the plot connects comedy and drama

but

what is the counter theory

3:24 AM theory1: plot is vehicular

theory2: genre isnt really disparate at all….so how does plot function?

i dont know….

3:25 AM Pontifus: northrop frye is suddenly relevant…i need to find something, give me a minute

3:26 AM http://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/dherring/ap/consider/frye/indexfryeov.htm

genres sort of bleed into each other

so you’ve got tragic comedy, romantic comedy, and ironic comedy

Ghostlightning: yeah, and code geass is the best example

Pontifus: but not really comedy “by itself”

3:27 AM Ghostlightning: if one includes anime-specific genra

e

such as mecha, harem

etc

lelangir: so there’s a distinction here

between style and genre

style is romance

genre is mecha

mecha romance

slice of life romance

mecha comedy

’slife comedy

Pontifus: well, tragedy and comedy are kind of opposed as per frye, i guess he’d call tragicomedy ironic comedy

Ghostlightning: style… hmmm

3:28 AM lelangir: sooo frye says they’re in the same paradigm

opposed but comparable

Pontifus: right

lelangir: that’s good

Ghostlightning: oooh that frye model got me wet

Pontifus: damn, we really need cuchlann

lelangir: lol

Pontifus: he knows so much more about frye than i do, lol

lelangir: he’s got like over 9000 degrees lol

3:29 AM Pontifus: right

unlimited degree works

lelangir: haha

man

those are two REALLY complementing memes

Ghostlightning: off topic: capt. global of the macross is stupid. there, i said it

sorry

lelangir: but anywa….

Pontifus: lol

also off topic: ghostlightning, you’ll be proud of me…i downloaded macross the other day

3:30 AM the first one

Ghostlightning: protip: DO NOT WATCH MACROSS AFTER WATCHING LOGH

just save yourself the anguish

Pontifus: i haven’t/won’t

logh still scares me

lelangir: today i downloaded: zoku zetsubou, g gundam oST, bokurano, kaiji, giant robo ova, logh giaden

NO

WATCH LOGH

Ghostlightning: wooo

Pontifus: i will eventually, lol

Ghostlightning: GIANT ROBO WILL FULFILL YOU

lelangir: eeeeexcellent

oh yeah

i’m gonna write about kino’s journey at some point

3:31 AM Ghostlightning: watch macross first

Pontifus: i bought kino’s journey, and it’s just collecting dust

lelangir: about travel and ethnocentric imperialism

it probably applies to more anime as well

Ghostlightning: it doesn’t take itself seriously for the most part, so don’t - but when it does, it does really well imo

lelangir: the whole “vagabond” trope

Pontifus: though i’ll feel inspired to dust it off if you write about it, probably

lelangir: Kino?????

from what i’ve seen Kino is totali srs

Ghostlightning: any of you fans of military history?

3:32 AM lelangir: not really

Ghostlightning: like breakdowns of great battles and shit?

Pontifus: not so much

Ghostlightning: okay

Pontifus: lol, i do books

lelangir: but….logh tactics are sexy

Pontifus: pretend ones

Ghostlightning: PERFECT

that’s my new series on WRL

military history: breakdowns of great anime battles

3:33 AM lelangir: i can see it already

21stcenturydigitalboy: “I JUST CAME”

Ghostlightning: i’m doing battle of saturn’s rings (SDF-Macross) now

lelangir: ad naseum

Ghostlightning: to launch it

Pontifus: i submit that you should call it “tactics are sexy”

lelangir: oh yes

tactics are sexy

especially in geass

Ghostlightning: okay, I WILL

lelangir: KEIKAKU DOORI, YUO GOT IN MAH WATERFALL TRAPS

Ghostlightning: yeah, i’m doing battle of narita from r1

3:34 AM lelangir: I thought the Chinese gorge thing was badass

“xingke…..nooooooo”

pontifus must feel excluded

Ghostlightning: but lelangir, if you feel like doing any of the great ones from LOGH,

lelangir: you missed soooooooo many memes

TOO MANY

Pontifus: oh shit, that mythoi circle i linked is kind of wrong

lelangir: geass = trope gold mine

Ghostlightning: YES

lelangir: i dont like analyzing logh in that way

3:35 AM crusader does that

get crusader to write for ya

Ghostlightning: okay

lelangir: he’d do it

Ghostlightning: the template is easy anyway

Pontifus: it says comedy, romance, tragedy, irony/satire…but i think the right order is romance, comedy, tragedy, and irony/satire

Ghostlightning: tha’s the plan

Pontifus: so comedy and tragedy do overlap

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: how so?

wait yeah

Pontifus: mythos of summer/mythos of autumn

lelangir: they can….

like….monty python or something

well….”tragedy”

3:36 AM i’m not so familiar with grecian tragedy

Ghostlightning: shakespeare even

lelangir: oh shit

Ghostlightning: unless you dismiss comedic elements from let’s say romeo and juliet

as mere ‘relief’

lelangir: but that speaks directly tot he difference between style/genre

“tragedy” can be either totalizing or not

Ghostlightning: combo breakers for teh drama

lelangir: tragedy as in “everyone is sad”

or tragedy as in “everyone dies”

they’re not mutually exclusive

Pontifus: i think putting the mythoi on a circle might be too restrictive of them anyway

3:37 AM oversimplification

Ghostlightning: IN SHAKESPEARE: tragedy-everyone dies, comedy-everyone gets married

lelangir: ok

3:38 AM man….i’m done with this kannagi post lol

for another day….

Pontifus: in any case, when you said “plot connects comedy and drama,” i’d say they’re all connected anyway

lelangir: how so?

comedy and drama aren’t intrinsically connected

it’s a non-sequitor as it is

it needs something “logical” or “syntatical” to make it fit

3:39 AM Pontifus: well, “drama” is a hard term for me to deal with as a genre anyway

i think drama is just a device

Ghostlightning: UNIVERSAL SET: PLOT, inter-connecting sets: style, genre

lelangir: drama as in dorama

drama = emo

Ghostlightning: style:device right?

Pontifus: comedy has drama, tragedy has drama, everything has drama

lelangir: for all intensive purposes here

but in kannagi they’re very distinct

emo doesn’t equal comedy

they dont even self-satirize their emo

3:40 AM Ghostlightning: but to categorize a subject as specifically drama, one must ignore the intentional fallacey

Pontifus: you think so?

Ghostlightning: and go by how it’s marketed

lelangir: yeah

marketed as comedy

with harem undertones

Pontifus: i think that, maybe, if the drama (dorama or emo though it may be) serves comedy, ultimately, then it falls under comedy…it’s just not funny yet, but it promises humor

3:41 AM and if it isn’t ultimately funny, then it’s tragedy

lelangir: …hmm….

Pontifus: funny and/or generally happy

lelangir: i dont get it…

“generally”

but it isn’t monolithic

Ghostlightning: so people who dismiss kannagi, dismiss it within the framework of the market

lelangir: kannagi utilizes different approaches in tandem with the progression of its plot

“the market”

Ghostlightning: they are the consumers - the target market that kannagi “missed”

3:42 AM lelangir: which is different than the author (oh SHI- barthes)

Pontifus: now, i don’t know about the market

lelangir: wait mike hold on

“[t]his is my first original work. Whenever I thought it was a joke, it became too serious. And whenever I thought it was serious, it became a joke. That’s the kind of manga I’m aiming it to be.”

that upsets it

Ghostlightning: goodbye barthes

Pontifus: nooo, barthes, come back!

lelangir: lol

he is gooooone now

eri has spoken

BUTTTT

3:43 AM its different than the anime!

oh shi-

Ghostlightning: but the thing is, the author HAS LESS POWER

lelangir: vis-a-vis the viewer

ye

the market appropriates it

“the market”

which is just discursive

Ghostlightning: because the means of production is held by someone else

Pontifus: i can’t really agree that anything the author said is relevant here at all, lol

3:44 AM i don’t care what the creative process was, or even about the manga at all

Ghostlightning: the relevant thing here is what the marketers are intending

Pontifus: kannagi the anime is what it is

Ghostlightning: they invested in it

they distributed it

lelangir: ok Karl

Karl-chan

Ghostlightning: but the market has spoken: we dun liek it

Pontifus: they created an authorial consciousness, that the reader/viewer fills

lelangir: Marx-tan

yes

Ghostlightning: marx-tan yes

lelangir: [i'll stop lol]

Pontifus: really? kannagi wasn’t well recieved?

lelangir: yeah it was

3:45 AM dvd sales high

across the sphere too

Pontifus: yeah, i thought it was

Ghostlightning: oh so only teh bloggers are whining

lelangir: http://lelangir.dasaku.net/?p=928

no only a few

it’s not like index

Pontifus: ugh

lelangir: lol

Pontifus: don’t remind me

those six episodes were traumatic

3:46 AM lelangir: i was kinda sad i missed out a red haied loli tsundere with hot pants

but….i got tsugumi

red haired [at times tsundere] with seifafuku

Ghostlightning: i’m possessed by cuchlann and ghostlightning: the market received it well, implying they are entertained and have been recommending it to firends, high entertainment value = high literary value

lelangir: er, seira….

3:47 AM Ghostlightning: so bloggers, STFU

lelangir: huh?

Pontifus: nonononononono

noooooooooooo

lelangir: since when does entertainment value = literary value

Pontifus: all things have the same value

lelangir: ?

Ghostlightning: cuchlann quotes this michael guy

lelangir: “value”

define…….

Pontifus: literary value

lelangir: idealistically

not politically

Ghostlightning: value = utility that a readery experiences from the subject

lelangir: in essence anime is not deep

3:48 AM Ghostlightning: reader/consumer

lelangir: [oh shi- calling omo]

because its controlled by the industry

completely different histories

the history of literature vs. the history of anime

Pontifus: fuck, i need cuchlann’s aid!

lelangir: totally different

Pontifus: i’m telling him to jump on google

Ghostlightning: pontifus, i get what you’re saying

3:49 AM lelangir: me too

but i’m not up for it

we’re in a very political situation

so disregarding it is like….fljalewrjfoi

Ghostlightning: but the context here is that the readers/bloggers value shit the way they do

heirarchies and all taht

lelangir: yes

the discourse

produced by the industry/market

3:50 AM the literary value paradigm is irrelevant

Ghostlightning: but i’m with you ponti

lelangir: [hence 'anime is not deep']

Pontifus: “the literary value paradigm is irrelevant”

Ghostlightning: nothing can be invalidated

Pontifus: AAAAAGH

lelangir: zach, what “literary value” doesnt seem to take into consideration is discourse

in that discourse produces value

Ghostlightning: no need to scream, you can’t be invalidated LOOOOOL

Pontifus: right

lelangir: value is predicated upon discourse

Pontifus: but here’s the thing

3:51 AM no, wait, scratch that

lelangir: muahauahauahuah

you cannot beeat foucault

Pontifus: yes discourse produces value, but i think one could pretty much talk about anything…i think that latent value is basically value

lelangir: latent value?

3:52 AM oh shit

chuchlann is on!

Pontifus: a thing around which there is no discourse COULD have discourse, and that’s enough

Ghostlightning: hmmm, even latent value is put there by a “prime valuator”

Pontifus: i don’t think it’s “put” there, i think it’s just there

lelangir: no wait nonnonnonononono

Ghostlightning: hence, value is relative to valuer

RELATIVE

lelangir: things have no meaning until it is represented

representation is CONSTITUTIVE of meaning

Ghostlightning: YES

3:53 AM lelangir: there is no “thing” before it is represented

representation MAKES the thing

Ghostlightning: there is NO KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT LANGUAGE

lelangir: yes

Pontifus: yeah, i know

hang on, let me process

lelangir: just to let you know

Ghostlightning: tihs is funner tahn i thuotgh

3:54 AM lelangir: i’m like, in a constant state of jizzing right now

lmfao

“tihs is funner tahn i thuotgh”

Cuchlann has joined

Cuchlann has left

Ghostlightning: owen’s post resonates within me

lelangir: the amount of typos makes that hilarious for some reason

Ghostlightning: but that typo is artifice

lelangir: llololowwwwwwww

Pontifus: alright, i’m ready

Ghostlightning: synthetic comedy

3:55 AM Cuchlann has joined

Cuchlann has left

lelangir: oh my jizzzzzzzzzz

FUCK

Ghostlightning: greg come baaaaaack

Cuchlann has joined

Cuchlann: Oh Jesus that was too complicated…

Pontifus: narrative art doesn’t need discourse to have value, insofar as discourse is communication between art experiencers…in fact, discourse is only possible to a point

3:56 AM it only needs, in my estimation, one person to experience it

Cuchlann: Okay, so what’s happening here?

Pontifus: how to summarize, lol

lelangir: well

Ghostlightning: DISCOURSE can be between the subject and the viewer/reader

lelangir: we’re talking about kannagi

if you’d believe it

discourse is emepheral

Ghostlightning: DESHO?!

3:57 AM Pontifus: everyone, summarize your position!

Cuchlann: Well of course you are. And clearly, this is why the next podcast needs to happen soon.

lelangir: wait…

discourse is between the things

subjects are constituent of it

they create it

and anime is its objec

the discourse ON anime

Pontifus: right, and i think that isn’t necessary for art to have value

3:58 AM Ghostlightning: like right now, i’m having a righteous discussion with ep 06 of SDF macross. Global you are an idiot.

lelangir: you think eh?

but that’s your discourse

Ghostlightning: value is not necessary

value is contingent

lelangir: the discourse in which you are situated

take away your discourse, it takes away your meaning

then, what is value?

an empty signifier

Ghostlightning: value = is the utility of a being experiencing a subject

3:59 AM the utility being gained

lelangir: just because your “value” means to say that discourse is irrelevant…that in itself is irrelevant because it NEEDS discourse to in itself have meaning

4:01 AM er, i didnt mean to come off as offensive..

Pontifus: i’m not saying that ALL discourse is irrelevant, or that discourse is even irrelevant at all, but that the value of art isn’t predicated entirely upon discourse between people, and that i don’t necessarily think there are variant “levels” of value

Ghostlightning: off topic: macross is a pilots’ show, not a generals’, so i’ll go easy on global nao

there are levels of value!

lelangir: so art has an intrinstic value….

Pontifus: assuming that the relationship between reader and text is discourse, then, sure, discourse is required

no

lelangir: but wait

Ghostlightning: i value macross over other anime

lelangir: that’s the discourse split

4:02 AM political value vs. philosophical value

Ghostlightning: levels are subjective, but they exist

lelangir: both are right

but irreconciaibly different

Pontifus: art has no intrinsic value, which makes it infinitely valuable

Ghostlightning: OOOOH, PARADOX

Cuchlann: At which point am I meant to enter the conversation? O_o

lelangir: nao

Pontifus: whenever, lol

Ghostlightning: just jump in

lelangir: wait

so

okkkokkkokko

Pontifus: lelangir

lelangir: we cant explain philosophical value with political value…

Pontifus: you’re like a brick wall

4:03 AM i love it

lelangir: -_-

Cuchlann: I have two responses to this conversation: one is in the same spirit, and one is in my usual asshole, reductionist spirit.

Pontifus: seriously, test the fuck out of my views

i don’t get a chance to do this that often

lelangir: oh lol

i thought you meant i was STOOPID lollolololo

Pontifus: no, lol

lelangir: stop being a tsundere greg

4:04 AM and call me dan…. or w/e

Ghostlightning: uh, greg maybe we should leave

lelangir: i like one syllable names

greg zach dan mike

Ghostlightning: these two are gonna fuck

Pontifus: i get into the habit of using internet names

Cuchlann: Which one’s the uke?

Pontifus: if that’s the first thing i learn

me, i think

lelangir: seme…I R ATTACKAR?

Cuchlann: Now, remind me of which role uke is?

Ghostlightning: oh no, you have seme really written all over you

Pontifus: bottom

fuck why do i know that

Cuchlann: Written in what, I wonder?

lelangir: ore ga sasahara…omae ga OGIUE

4:05 AM Pontifus: haha

Ghostlightning: oh i got it wrong

Pontifus: I’LL SHOW YOU HOW AGGRESSIVE I CAN BE

Ghostlightning: uke is below right

desho?

Pontifus: yeah

lelangir: ok….so going back to value etc.

Ghostlightning: ok, your wish to be challenged is an act of spreading your legs

Cuchlann: Okay, here’s my reductionist answer: I cite Dark Side of the Moon.

lelangir: lmfao

4:06 AM and….

Cuchlann: And what? That’s the anwer. ; )

Okay, yes, I will explain.

lelangir: [dont look at me, im the only guitarist i know that's never heard it before]

[that and the fact that i dont like hendrix]

Pontifus: :O

it’s acceptible though, you’re a jazz guy

lelangir: DUN DUN DUN

still

Cuchlann: I wouldn’t compare Hendrix and Pink Floyd at all, actually.

But anyway.

Ghostlightning: me too

4:07 AM Cuchlann: No one listens to DSotM in a group. At any rate, not stereotypically.

lelangir: i dig radiohead now though

ok computer is beast

Cuchlann: You always hear it alone, when you’re like fifteen.

lelangir: at any rate, i’m listening on loop to the kimi ga nozomu eien OP

lol

Pontifus: lol

4:08 AM Cuchlann: For a whole lot of American teenagers, at any rate, it’s the most meaningful thing they’ve ever heard.

It “speaks to them.” Much as the voices do, I’m sure.

lelangir: lol

like stairway to heaven backwards?

Cuchlann: This is without contact with other fans of Pink Floyd.

Now, the OED tells me that “discourse” has a lot of different meanings.

lelangir: OED?

4:09 AM i think i read that in a book just no

now

Cuchlann: Oxford English Dictionary.

lelangir: ohh

Ghostlightning: one can discourse with the subject!

lelangir: discourse in the foucauldian sense

Cuchlann: Okay, hold on.

Pontifus: see, this is hard for me because i don’t know focault yet, lol

Cuchlann: That is one sense of the meaning of “discourse.”

Another is the conversation afterwards.

Ghostlightning: lelangir, distinguish focauldian discourse plz

4:10 AM lelangir: oh jezz ok

so

discourse is the bounds of thinkable thought

things outside discourse have no meaning

like anamolous categories

gay

mulatto

they dont fit into the binary

Cuchlann: We need to clarify our terms here, and “discourse,” in my opinion, isn’t useful in describing anything other than conversation.

lelangir: of straight and/or black/white

foucauldian discourse describes, in essence…”sociolinguistics”

4:11 AM Cuchlann: Of course, that assumes the discourse works in terms of a binary, which isn’t necessarily true.

lelangir: in a broad, instituationalized sense

not necessarily true yes

but works for those cases

Pontifus: i am now stepping into greg, who is also mobile suit cuchlann-gundam, and setting him on autopilot

lelangir: ok here’s an example

Cuchlann: I propose that we should use a different word, and not “discourse,” as academically the word is typically used to mean the setting within which people discuss topics.

lelangir: the subject does not produe knowledge

4:12 AM Ghostlightning: binaries are just asses waiting to be raped by deconstruction lol

lelangir: “setting”…

i’ve been inculcated into discourse as like, the godliest device ever

Cuchlann: Or group. As we are busily quibbling over words, I will admit “setting” is not the best choice.

lelangir: ok

well

4:13 AM what is the poit of not using discourse as an analytic tool?

Cuchlann: Yes, I can tell. I think you’re in the place I was several years ago, when you discovered a good critical theory and decided it was the holy of holies.

lelangir: what were we talkinga bout again?

Pontifus: in my mind, what you’re calling discourse is just existential existence…it’s the only thing worth considering, imo, so there isn’t even any need to discuss anything “beyond” it

there is no beyond

Ghostlightning: LIEK ME AND DECONSTRUCTION LOL

Cuchlann: Discourse the act of using analytic tools, in my terminology.

lelangir: discourse is the act?

Cuchlann: I’m trying to make sure you know what I’m saying when I say it.

Yes.

4:14 AM Ghostlightning: i realize that i no longer contribute value to this discussion

lelangir: well discourse is also practice

me shooting a basket contributes to the discourse on basketball

Cuchlann: Any act, repeated, is practice.

Ghostlightning: but i will derive value from it by LURKING

LURK MODE ON

lelangir: system of agreements

language

Pontifus: right, but, correct me if i’m wrong, it seems like you’re saying that discourse is the entire range of possible actions, thoughts, etc.

Cuchlann: No, it doesn’t. You shooting a basket and learning a new way to consider the act, then telling others — that contributes to the discourse.

lelangir: discourse neednt be ‘active’

you’re actively participating in it

4:15 AM by subjugating yourself to it

Cuchlann: I’m trying to copy-paste what Pontifus just said, but it won’t let me.

lelangir: the only way to avoid discourse is to scoop your eyes out and slit your ears off

“right, but, correct me if i’m wrong, it seems like you’re saying that discourse is the entire range of possible actions, thoughts, etc.”

“possible”….yes, sort of

Cuchlann: Here’s the first point of my poly-pronged point: if everything is discourse, there’s no point in discussing it, as it’s everything. Thus, it’s nothing.

Pontifus: exactly

existentialism ftw

Cuchlann: It has nothing to contrast it in the chain of meaning.

4:16 AM lelangir: no

Cuchlann: Not even existentialism, just pragmatic defining if critical terms.

lelangir: discourse points out holes in itself

Cuchlann: *of

Pontifus: i just like that word

lelangir: discouse expands, contracts

Ghostlightning: existentialism 4tw

lelangir: reconstitutes

no yesssss

Pontifus: sure, but anything outside of it doesn’t exist, right?

Cuchlann: All right, let’s go on to prong number two…

lelangir: discourse theory takes into account silence

booya

4:17 AM it contains in itself its antithesis

without synthesizing

Cuchlann: Do we all agree that a piece of art has no meaning without a viewer?

Ghostlightning: LELANGIR: WHAT IS NOT DISCOURSE?

lelangir: silence

no meaning

i’m being sophist probably

Pontifus: but if silence is the opposite of discourse, and discourse is all that is, all i can concern myself with as a human being is all that is, and therefore science doesn’t exist

Cuchlann: Silence is a perfectly acceptable answer, and thus part of discourse.

Pontifus: *silence

lelangir: i didnt say discourse was all that is

4:18 AM discourse is, paradoxicaly, everything and nothing

take race for instance

you MUST have rae

race

Cuchlann: Which means it’s not very good for conversation.

lelangir: but is is NOTHING

it doesnt exist

O_o

Cuchlann: Actually, it’s not necessary to have race as a construction, it’s just habitual at this point in human history.

lelangir: nationalism too

Ghostlightning: silence in the context of a conversation is not NOT DISCOURSE

Pontifus: race in the sense of different kinds of human beings?

Ghostlightning: right?

lelangir: yes

Pontifus: because, yeah, i don’t think that’s necessary

lelangir: black/ white w/e

…………yeah it is

4:19 AM Pontifus: it’s habitual

lelangir: in this specific political history it is

well discourse is inert

it doesnt move

it is specific

yes

Cuchlann: Answers, though, real quick: does a book have content if no one reads it?

Pontifus: no

Cuchlann: I use “read” in the broad sense.

Pontifus: well, not really

lelangir: oh god…uhhmmm

yes

it needs an author

Pontifus: granted that the author has read it, probably

Cuchlann: Not necessarily.

Pontifus: it doesn’t have meaning “by itself,” no

Ghostlightning: the author who rote it?

read while writing

4:20 AM lelangir: [again to reiterate, i'm jizzing]

Cuchlann: And anyway, the “reading” of the author violates the terms of my question.

lelangir: wait

iin your sentence

Cuchlann: If no one’s read the book, does it have any content?

lelangir: is the author the subject or the object

Cuchlann: The author is outside the scope of my question.

Ghostlightning: sybilant says hi to you all

lelangir: hello kagami

Cuchlann: You’re in a room with a book. You’re illiterate.

lelangir: i mean

Pontifus: no, it doesn’t have meaning on its own, says i

lelangir: ok

4:21 AM Cuchlann: You’re unaware of the social mores concerning books.

Pontifus: well, then the book might mean firewood, but we’re talking about the text, i guess, lol

lelangir: but wait

false dichotomy?

Cuchlann: Pontifus has hit on where I’m going, at any rate.

lelangir: shit

owen term

sorry

Ghostlightning: she gave me the tsun tsun treatment for telling people she’s kagami

lol

lelangir: in the absense of one type of meaning is there total lack of meaning?

Cuchlann: Without reading, a book is merely paper and ink.

lelangir: “specific” social norms arent everything

Cuchlann: I’m talking about artistic meaning here, sorry.

lelangir: it could reprsent that the reader is stupid

oh ok

4:22 AM yes

so if you’re illiterate

artistic meaning is impossible

wait

no

not necessarily

not if you’re inculcated into the SOCIAL DISCOURSE that books are inherently beautiful

Cuchlann: Artistic meaning from reading is impossible.

I said outsid that.

outside

lelangir: LIKE FRANKENSTEIN’S MONSTER????

Cuchlann: Yes.

lelangir: if i remember….

Cuchlann: This is a philosophical hypothetical.

Pontifus: GOTHIC, OH SHI-

lelangir: lol

4:23 AM Cuchlann: Excellent example, actually.

If the Creature hadn’t learned to read, what would the books he found have meant to him?

Pontifus: it makes me really happy that, for the most part, i can just reach over and grab the pertinent examples off my shelves

lelangir: i have stuart hall et al. sitting here…

Cuchlann: I would have to go to another room, and step over, uh, other books, but yes.

Pontifus: which i hope means i’m doing pretty well as far as collecting, lol

lelangir: oh shit and some mary shelley too!

Cuchlann: I think I have my Aristotle in here right now…

4:24 AM lelangir: poetics is right here

collecting dust

Pontifus: poor poetics

Cuchlann: Yes, in the stack with the Shakespeare essays, the grammar book, and the Norton critical theory text.

lelangir:

so yeah…..

Cuchlann: Okay, so in our hypothetical situation, the book is drained of all artistic meaning.

lelangir: insofar as you are illiterate

Cuchlann: Yes, that’s given.

lelangir: incapable of directly producing experiential meaning

4:25 AM but that is not social meaning

Cuchlann: Now, here’s the part that pleases lelangir: this means that discourse is necessary for art to function.

lelangir: /jizz

isn’t art discursive anyway?

me farting is art

Cuchlann: Here’s the part that doesn’t please him: the art itself must necessarily be outside the discourse itself, as it has no meaning.

lelangir: socrates raping a young boy is art

Cuchlann: If done before an audience, yes, both can be true.

lelangir: ah yes!

4:26 AM the audience is abstracted

reduced to a feeling

Ghostlightning: the audience could be the boy itself

lelangir: ” the art itself must necessarily be outside the discourse itself, as it has no meaning.”

i dont get that part

Cuchlann: The audience must necessarily be removed from the art, as art has no practical purpose — and the boy would have practical concerns at that point.

lelangir: how is it necssary?

no wait

it’s not removed

4:27 AM because the discourse created it

Cuchlann: Discourse is about making meaning. Art makes no meaning on its own, and cannot take part in discourse, as discourse is a two-way street.

lelangir: as we said before

representation is constitutive of meaning

there is no meaning outside representation

Pontifus: ok, hang on there

Ghostlightning: activities with practical purposes cannot be read as art? how come?

lelangir: it did not exist prior to representation

Cuchlann: I cite Oscar Wilde.

Pontifus: how analogous is the phenomenological idea of the author consciousness dispossessing the reader to discourse?

Cuchlann: “All art is quite useless.”

I’ll dig up a link…

lelangir: getting a bit marxist here

how does art make no meaning?

4:28 AM what if its social commentary via play?

Cuchlann: Art makes no meaning.

The audience makes meaning.

lelangir: the art of being earnest

it’s good to be earnest

Cuchlann: http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/owilde/bl-owilde-pic-pre.htm

lelangir: yes…

so how does that make art situated outside discourse

does discourse “osmotize” it?

Ghostlightning: i’m familiar with the quote, but tieing a bow-tie for the purpose of looking good at a dinner party can be ‘artful’ or can’t it?

Cuchlann: Discourse observes art. It must be outside to be observed.

lelangir: no

4:29 AM what?

Cuchlann: Yes.

lelangir: observing is irrelevant to position

Cuchlann: No it’s not.

lelangir: how?

Pontifus: insofar as art isn’t practical?

Cuchlann: Let me line my ducks up for a second…

lelangir: if art is outside discourse it has no meaning in that discourse

no intrinsic art meaning

but it has social meaning

like mulattos

they are weird

Cuchlann: The meaning is within the discourse, because it’s not attached to the art.

lelangir: they dont exist in the discourse on blackness

Cuchlann: It’s in the space between.

Pontifus: but if the subject is the art, and the object is the discourse

4:30 AM lelangir: ah

Pontifus: they’re inside the same semiotic construct, sure

lelangir: oh ok isee that

Pontifus: but separate

lelangir: nice

hmmmm

Cuchlann: This is all reader-response and phenomenology, that the art doesn’t have the meaning, the audience does.

Ghostlightning: the audience, rather, creates the meaning you mean

Cuchlann: Or at least, my interpretation of those schools of thought.

Yes.

lelangir: i like chuchlann’s thought

that meaning is attached to the audience

Cuchlann: That’s why it’s possible to have different opinions on art.

4:31 AM lelangir: i’d like to view it as art being vacuum pockets in discourse

Ghostlightning: LELANGIR I’VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU THIS SINCE MY FIRST COMMENTS ON YOUR POSTS AT THAT

lelangir: …though different opinion is discourse in itself

Cuchlann: I don’t think I’d see too much of a problem with the very slight difference in that interpretation.

Yes, it is.

lelangir: but discourse defies quantum physics per se

Cuchlann: @rubio: haha.

lelangir: you can have multiple discourse in the same geopolitics

@mike….O_o

Cuchlann: I think that defines, not defies, quantum mechanics.

4:32 AM lelangir: oh yeah lol

oops

Cuchlann: Given that only in quantum mechanics can you have superposition.

Ghostlightning: no, that the readers create the meaning, agreeing amongst themselves

lelangir: yeah…..

Cuchlann: Well now, it’s not that they’re agreeing amongst themselves.

Pontifus: or one reader agreeing with itself

lelangir: that’s so IKnight from last winter

Cuchlann: Go back to Dark Side of the Moon.

Okay, Pontifus got it, basically. Never mind.

Pontifus: i wish i had nexisted last winter

lelangir: no way

Cuchlann: I did, it was like any winter. ^_^

lelangir: from june-december

4:33 AM craziest time ever

or so owen tells me

but anyway

yeah, Greg has convinced me

Pontifus: this is why i wanted him here, lol

lelangir: art’s lack of intrinstic meaning must implicate that discourse is attached to it. blah blah blah

Cuchlann: Art is, ultimately, an aesthetic experience. It can carry with it thoughts and opinions, but they won’t be worth anything if the art doesn’t make the audience feel.

4:34 AM Ghostlightning: the reader agrees with something as to waht a sign means, and communicates that meaning to others, the meaning strengthens, pending agreement from such others

Cuchlann: Hence Wilde’s line: There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.

lelangir: so…there’s a split between what art really is and what art is perceived to be

“modernism” is discourse

but that has no effect on what the art really is

Cuchlann: Yes.

lelangir: which n ever changes

Cuchlann: Art is basically art, always.

lelangir: yup

4:35 AM Cuchlann: That’s also why you get different readings of classic texts in different eras.

lelangir: yes

Cuchlann: Skim through a history of studies on Hamlet to see it in action.

lelangir: discourse is historically dependnat

Pontifus: now here’s where i jump in and be disagreeable…mike, i think that, once an agreement is established, there’s no making it stronger or weaker, it just IS

4:36 AM Cuchlann: But the aesthetic experience is not. Or at least, the strength of response. a differing system of mores could alter the particular aesthetic experience.

lelangir: ok well now that greg has upset my notion of what things “are”, there are two routes

Ghostlightning: stronger in teh sense that more people agree, it becomse temporally on top of the heirarchies of meaning

lelangir: the “existential” route…and the social route

Pontifus: these agreements have relative strengths in different people’s artistic experiences, but no “ultimate” strength/weakness value

Ghostlightning: like for example: CODE GEASS = TRAINWRECK

lelangir: yep

Cuchlann: Oh, you youngsters (yes, I realize all our ages).

Because I would say X = trainwreck

4:37 AM Pontifus: geass is a trainwreck = true, geass is awesome = true, period

Cuchlann: But you guys probably don’t know anything about that.

Ghostlightning: it has power over code geass = not trainwreck, at present at least

wow, am i a youngster nao? LOL

lelangir: lol

32

ancient

Ghostlightning: both are true, but in practice, the former is more resonant

Pontifus: now, prevalent opinions, that’s a social thing, and isn’t related to artistic value

lelangir: wait…how’s that in rel. to an argument

isn’t an argument just a statement?

4:38 AM Ghostlightning: i argue even artistic value is a sign agreed upon by a society

Cuchlann: A statement that can be argued with, but yes.

lelangir: what it is directed at seems irrelevant

Ghostlightning: … a society of art theorists

lelangir: vis-a-vis its existential value

which is immutable

but its discourse potency….that’s different

Pontifus: “artistic value” as a term, sure, but not artistic value as applied

Ghostlightning: so art has no intrinsic value, as a meaning, has less power in practice

4:39 AM lelangir: i dont get it

Cuchlann: Actually, the lack of intrinsic meaning gives it more power.

Pontifus: agreed

lelangir: how?

Cuchlann: A crafted chair can be beautifully wrought, but ultimately it is a tool.

Ghostlightning: to use a cruder example, atheism (no theo) has less power than theism (yes theo)

Cuchlann: And as such, eventually even the most sensitive person will view it as a chair, to be sat upon.

lelangir: I guess I’m confused by greg’s use of “power”

4:40 AM Cuchlann: But art, with no use but to be art, to be “beautiful,” can never be written off as anything else.

lelangir: which is a loaded word in foucaultism…

oh wait hold on

art is art insofar as it has a definition

where did that definition come from?

Cuchlann: Ah. Power to affect an audience aesthetically.

Ghostlightning: if i sit on that artful chair, even artfully, am i reducing its artistic value?

Cuchlann: My definition comes from Wilde.

lelangir: oh shi- barthes again…

4:41 AM Cuchlann: I would say you aren’t affecting it, unless you break it.

lelangir: hmmmmmm sosifdkjsosjsojKJ!J!OIU$(*&(U93wt5w94u

so

Cuchlann: You simply occlude it, like standing in front of a painting.

lelangir: we’ve created art such that it has the agency to cast off structural hegemony

sorry i love that terminology

art has become art

Ghostlightning: the viewer, cannot experience the art the painter made, BUT HE CAN EXPERIENCE THE ART OF ME STANDING ARTFULLY IN FRONT OF IT

4:42 AM lelangir: yes

Ghostlightning: “ghostlightning’s shadow over cubism”

lelangir: but what is “art”

art came from where?

we say ‘art is art’

but that’s circular i think….

Cuchlann: Wilde again: We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely. All art is quite useless.

Art is a thing to be admired intensely.

lelangir: but….

that doesn’t consider its origin

or is origin pointless

Cuchlann: The origin is unimportant.

4:43 AM lelangir: why?

Cuchlann: The art stands before you. The author does not.

lelangir: no

Cuchlann: What is the origin of Beowulf?

lelangir: not origin as in author

origin as in meaning of the meaning of art

Cuchlann: The meaning is between you and the art.

That isn’t the origin.

Ghostlightning: etymology of art plz

Cuchlann: It’s the product of you consuming the art.

4:44 AM Pontifus: @mike observe, if you will, a battle of gods

lelangir: but

art has to be predicated upon something

everything is predicated

nothing is ahistoric

hence, from whence did art arrive

Pontifus: right, so

if nothing is ahistoric

“ahistoric” is nothing

lelangir: art cannot just exist all of a sudden

Pontifus: it doesn’t exist

Cuchlann: Art entered English through Anglo-Norman, from Old French.

Pontifus: so how is that important?

Cuchlann: It is created, but the artist effaces the creation with the completed work.

4:45 AM lelangir: wait

I mean

even art in an existential sense

Cuchlann: An orchestra doesn’t reveal its practices to the audience, only the performance.

lelangir: it must have a discursive root

Cuchlann: But it doesn’t matter to the aesthetic experience.

lelangir: correct me if i’m wrong (i probably am) its exisentialism needs discourse

guh so many types

4:46 AM no

Ghostlightning: the aesthetic experience is also up to the viewer/reader

Cuchlann: Art can be considered a product of discourse.

lelangir: but the aesthetic experience can be discursisve

Cuchlann: True.

Pontifus: insofar as discourse is one person agreeing with himself…is, i think, the idea, correct me if i’m wrong, o mighty cuchlann

Ghostlightning: i derive a lot of value watching practices

lelangir: ok

Cuchlann: Well, I’m generally inclined to say discourse requires at least two people, you folks came up with that one.

Ghostlightning: one person agreeing with the self, i find nothing wrong with it

4:47 AM i probably do it a lot

Pontifus: not i, lol

Ghostlightning: NONONO

Pontifus: it’s those focauldians over there

lelangir: lol

Ghostlightning: the discourse with the self

is between one’s memories

lelangir: nice

Ghostlightning: and the idea at hand

lelangir: your habitus

oh shi-

your habits

your consciousness

Ghostlightning: YES YES

Cuchlann: Hm. Okay, not bad, I can see that, I suppose.

lelangir: because

your identity is not stable

Ghostlightning: does the idea at hand, FIT?

lelangir: always morphing

4:48 AM being changed by external forces

Ghostlightning: with my past conceptions, etc?

lelangir: yes

Cuchlann: It works with the phenomenological idea of creating a second consciousness, which is one’s perception of the art.

lelangir: exactly

Ghostlightning: lelangir: IS THIS ART?

lelangir: oh shi-

i dont get that….

Ghostlightning: or: IS MY IDEA OF ART… LIMITED?

lelangir: why does one need a 2nd con. for art?’

Cuchlann: It’s the same thing we said earlier, but recast into different terms.

lelangir: @mike: i dont get that either

4:49 AM Cuchlann: Actually, now that I think of it, it’s probably a way to get at what you’re describing.

lelangir: yes ok i see that now

Cuchlann: Discourse within the self.

lelangir: but

that is predicated upon society

Ghostlightning: yes

lelangir: the self ineedss the othe

THE SELF NEEDS THE OTHER

Ghostlightning: instead of me listening to your words, i say it to myself, in my voice, to see if it ‘fits’ my self-concept

if it does, i probably will agree

lelangir: yes

4:50 AM all that is prediated uponmemory

with your contact with society

Ghostlightning: memory yes

lelangir: no experience = nomemory

= no discourse

Ghostlightning: THAT IS WHY WE REMEMBER LOVE

lelangir: nothing to discoure with or upon

lmfao

Ghostlightning: lololololol

lelangir: oh god…

Cuchlann: I have no problems with any of those statements, but they don’t alter the fact that art is solely aesthetic.

lelangir: in the existential sense

yeah

i guess

Cuchlann: In the experiential sense.

lelangir: if thats the right term

4:51 AM ok

oh yeah definitely

but then

there are fakers

Cuchlann: The experience is what I’m almost always concerned with, rather than the implications.

lelangir: “oh duuuuuude that art meant soooo much to me! [wanna fuck?]‘

Ghostlightning: since we agree, the idea becomes ’stronger’

lelangir: but then

what i just said isnt even experiential

just machiavallian

Cuchlann: It’s based on experience.

Pontifus: sure, people lie, but i think our entire conversation here takes honesty for granted

4:52 AM Ghostlightning: um mutually exclusive?

lelangir: its just transplanting experience over social goals

Cuchlann: A lie is as based on experience as a truth, or else the liar wouldn’t be able to lie.

lelangir: wait

re@mike

it gets stronger?

yeah i suppose

that’s where discourse gets it strength

in #s

Ghostlightning: yes

4:53 AM lelangir: so

Ghostlightning: the grand march of ideas

lelangir: I think there is no finalized definition of art

Ghostlightning: never

lelangir: there are always contesting theories

of equal value

Ghostlightning: hegel: keikaku doori

Pontifus: which almost seems to be the way it has to be, but i haven’t put a lot of thought into that, so don’t ask me to back it up

lelangir: what is significant is each contesting theory’s political relevance

4:54 AM Cuchlann: No, political relevance is completely unimportant.

Ghostlightning: it is significant, yes, but i dunno about ultimate significance

lelangir: how’s it irrelevant?

Cuchlann: It’s an after-affect of the passage of art through consciousness.

Pontifus: it’s sociology

Ghostlightning: yea how?

lelangir: [insofar as we mean political in the same way]

i thought we said all theories were equal

4:55 AM one theory claims art is something beyond theory

Cuchlann: And I’m giving you mine. That’s what this conversation is, yes? ^_^

lelangir: so…we agree to disagree

that’s the end right?

so its FOR FUNNNNN

but yeah…

anyway

Cuchlann: It’s always the end. But didn’t you enjoy yourself?

lelangir: yeah

Ghostlightning: the art of conversation

Cuchlann: See, in my version, that’s the point.

lelangir: that’s actually the best conclusion lol

to enjoy yourself

?

Cuchlann: Aesthetic experience achieved.

Ghostlightning: yes

4:56 AM lelangir: i still dont like that….

[i'm still pleasuring myself]

Ghostlightning: and with agreement, the feeling is intensified

lelangir: if one theory proclaims art above theory

Cuchlann: Well, on a personal level, let me put it to you this way–

lelangir: that seems contradictory

it needs itself to invalidate itelf

4:57 AM Cuchlann: I didn’t start reading because of a political end (in any sense of the word political). I read habitually because I read once and the aesthetic experience appealed to me more than other pursuits.

And I never claimed art was above theory. In fact, when people claim that, I get angry.

lelangir: uhoh

Ghostlightning: nothing is intrinsically valuable over another thing

lelangir: i dont get it though…

Ghostlightning: people assign values into heirarchies

4:58 AM Cuchlann: Don’t get what?

lelangir: how….art can be nothing

but it needs meaning to be described in such a way

no wait

no it doesnt

Pontifus: thus spake derrida, kinda

lelangir: its nothing regardless

…

Ghostlightning: all this, is nothing, empty and meaningless

Pontifus: art being nothing is what lets it mean anything at all

lelangir: it exists if i dont see it

shiet…

Cuchlann: Who, like Zarathustra, found himself stinking in a cave, what?

lelangir: but then it doesnt exist…

Ghostlightning: its meaning is but a contingency of us meaning-makers

lelangir: so does that theory merely state that things are even if they aren’t?

ungh

4:59 AM Ghostlightning: and we, like the meaning, are ephemeral

Cuchlann: I never said art is nothing.

I said art has no intrinsic meaning. There’s a difference.

Pontifus: or, yeah

Cuchlann: Nothing has an intrinsic meaning.

lelangir: yes

Cuchlann: Trees don’t, or fire, or floods.

Pontifus: it is something that means nothing, inherently

Cuchlann: But they still exist.

lelangir: what i was getting at….hmmm

Ghostlightning: signs exist

5:00 AM lelangir: “existentialism” describes art as meaningless

do we even need existentialism for that MEANING in and of itself to continue to exist?

the meaning of meaningless

Cuchlann: Sartre… bleh.

Ghostlightning: kannagi exists, for the people who derive meaning from it (writer, producer, distributor, consumer, critic)

lelangir: so

Ghostlightning: and everyone will have an opinion

lelangir: but art is different i think

it’s much more abstract

5:01 AM that made little sense

Ghostlightning: and the majority of agreements, will have weight

Cuchlann: Kannagi exists as a bunch of digital files, and possibly some animation cels — or more likely, more digital files.

lelangir: waitwaitwitw go back to sartre

or is that thought wrong?

Cuchlann: The meaning is in the watching, not the existence.

Ghostlightning: each social group/entity will make it mean something

lelangir: that active knowledge is predicated upon existence of a buttress for that knowledge

Ghostlightning: yes, the experience, not the existence

Cuchlann: Oh, my ex just really liked Sartre, so I go “bleh.”

lelangir: oh

5:02 AM Ghostlightning: not experience isn’t limited to watching

selling, creating, discussing

Cuchlann: Yes, the experience. And it isn’t, no.

Ghostlightning: all part of it

i prefer camus to sartre

Cuchlann: But the thing itself isn’t part of any of those, except as a thing. It offers no special, extra value that wouldn’t be achieved with any other show in its place.

Ghostlightning: yes, the thing in itself is meaningless

5:03 AM lelangir: yes

but

that meaningless is meaningful

Pontifus: or, maybe it wouldn’t be achiever, but the important thing, i guess, is that it could be achieved

Ghostlightning: all things, in themselves are empty and meaningless

Pontifus: *achieved

lelangir: important…

Ghostlightning: AND IT DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING that they are empty and meaningless

no consequence

no imnpact

lelangir: ok

insofar as we don’t observe them

5:04 AM maybe

its meaningless inasmuch as you make it meaningless, which is sort of impossible sounding

Ghostlightning: as long as when we do observe, we assign meaning, then it has consequence

lelangir: how do you make it meaningless?

you say

“this is meaningless”

but thats the same as “this is meaningful”

Ghostlightning: i cannot make it meaningless

lelangir: meaninglessness is another state of meaning

negative meaning

5:05 AM nevertheless

Ghostlightning: it is an acknowledgment that it has no ‘real’ ;true’ meaning

lelangir: meaning

Ghostlightning: aside from what we make for it

that’s what i mean

not a reduction of meaning to oblivion

lelangir: yeah

Ghostlightning: but an acknowledgment of the lack of ultimacy in the meaning i assign for the sign

5:06 AM Cuchlann: All right, with this new turn, I will retire. I have to get up early tomorrow.

Ghostlightning: thanks for participating!

Cuchlann: Someone save this and post it tomorrow.

Pontifus: i plan on it

lelangir: oh jesus

Ghostlightning: edit plz

lelangir: lmfao

kaiser will cry

those sweet swedish tears

Cuchlann: You have only yourselves to blame. Well, and lelangir, if you’re not already him. But still.

5:07 AM Down his pinstripe suit.

Pontifus: aww, he might mess up the suit

lelangir: not already me?

Cuchlann: You have only yourself to blame.

lelangir: yep

Cuchlann: They have themselves, and also you.

lelangir: oh thanks!

Ghostlightning: replace our names with handles plz

Pontifus: yeah

Ghostlightning: thanks

Cuchlann: And away!

Cuchlann has left