THAT Animeblog

40 Comments so far

1. IcyStorm September 5th, 2008 3:17 am

   I wanted to read this, I really did.

   Too long, too many pictures, I died a quarter of the way through. Maybe chunks are better @_@

2. Crusader September 5th, 2008 3:54 am

   Alright I can see what you mean, just edited just for your comrade. Image dump set at the end of the whole text part of the post. Let’s see if it works better or if you’re just weird…

3. lelangir September 5th, 2008 5:15 am

   The first Gundam series I was exposed to were proverbial Wing and G on CN and then SEED Destiny later. I did enjoy the ‘relative’ absence of beam weapons and how the machines actually moved like machines instead of nimble martial artists.

   And then teamwork, as you pointed out, was a rarer treat. It was actually nice to see a MS get owned by lowly tanks (3 of them, in that one episode, whichever one it was) although that didn’t last quite that long.

   As for the love story, well, it was ok, though the very last scenes of the penultimate episode were particularly powerful, I thought. But you didn’t like the coda episode? I suppose if you take it as an integral part of the series then yes, it is “misplaced”, though there were aspects of that episode I didn’t like, I thought the very, very ending was great, Michael’s babyish catharsis was awesome, the classic log cabin was cliché and wonderful, the music was stellar – oh yes the music was probably the best part for me.

   On that note it’s interesting to see a guy like Sanders imbued with a trait as so relevantly disparate as jazz piano. With Eledore being a rockstar, I doubt there’s any more meaning behind music in this series, though it was a nice touch.

4. KYPMbangi September 5th, 2008 6:00 am

   8th MS Team is the penultimate of what Gundam should be in my textbook. War is dirty and should remain like that, not just flashy technicolor, near-immortal emo teen boys and pretty faces. Their ambition of reaching more range of audience and monies had transformed Gundam as one of the mainstream anime had disappointed all of us who appreciate this blog. Kudos to the writer, indeed, 8th MS Team is a godsend from God Gundam

5. Halcyon September 5th, 2008 6:43 am

   I think you put into words exactly what I love about this series.
   Although, the late last episode was a bit of an existential downer the preceeding episodes were nothing sort of brilliant. I got broken into Gundam with Gundam F91 way back in the mid-90s.

   I don’t count 08th MS Team as part of the Gundam franchise because the only thing it shares in common with it is the titular Mobile Suit. IMO, 08th MS Team is in a league entirely on it’s own. I first saw MS 08th Team on CN’s Toonami block, back when Anime was just breaking into the American Mainstream and Toonami actually carried decent shows (e.g. Rurouni Kenshin, etc) and so this series definitely holds a special place in my heart.

   A lot of people have called this show overrated but I don’t think they understand what the real appeal of the series was.

6. Ratwedge September 5th, 2008 7:22 am

   Right on. 08th Team was the only real Gundam I enjoyed. It was brutal and it wasnt a beam fest in the sky with laser light discos. It was brutal in its simplicity and it showed us not all Mecha is ‘fancy emo aces’ and ‘giant super robots’.

   I love how it showed just how clunky the Moblie Suits were. It was awesome how they moved more like they were giant robot than other series where they are treated nothing more than exploding cannon fodder.

   At the end of the day I felt more connected to this team than any other team simply because these seemd like regular people just trying to make it through a war.

   Also I still /facepalm when people try to tell me how bad this depicts Gundam, yet in the same sentance they remind me how awesome a gundam with angel wings is.

7. Zentari September 5th, 2008 7:33 am

   @KYPMbangi: I agree .

   I have to admit that this is one of my favourite mecha series because everything looks normal.No Jesus plot armor , characters are believable and down to earth (instead for say Lacus who is a plot device with a supercomputer in her head ) and because numbers and experience do count and while good equipment helps, it does not win the battle for you (something that Gundam 00 came pretty close to achieving too,gundams WERE ZOMFGHAX but when swarmed by enemies they had trouble fending them off).

8. rollchan September 5th, 2008 8:16 am

   who’s the STAR of this show? its not Amuro Ray, right?

9. Myssa Rei September 5th, 2008 9:08 am

   Rollchan: No, the lead is one Shiro Amada, who at that time was the OLDEST titular MS pilot (I think he was 27) in a Gundam series,

10. bearzerger September 5th, 2008 10:11 am

    I liked it, no endless and what’s worse retarded philosophical debates no emo-teen in the cockpit. No superhumans and most especially no cute little robots accompanied by a ditzy female.

11. rollchan September 5th, 2008 10:29 am

    @myssa: thanks:)

12. IKnight September 5th, 2008 11:45 am

    Great post. I’m going to have to go and rewatch Norris and the team (yet) again.

    On the realism issue, looking back I see that I focused very much on the visual element (because I’d be the first to admit I’ve no idea what military life is like), and I think visually there’s still a sense of arrangement and artifice to the show (a prime example being that Gouf outlined against the sun). Not that that’s a bad thing: it looks better that way. In terms of the relationships between the mecha and other vehicles, the emphasis on the mechanical element (and indeed on the mechanics), the clunky and chunky Gundams and perhaps above all the teamwork I take your point that The 08th is in a sense very realistic. (And we already agree that it’s a great show.)

13. SnakeEatSnake September 5th, 2008 12:18 pm

    I haven’t been exposed much to the “mecha” genre and of what I’ve seen I haven’t much liked. 08th MS Team is one of the rare exceptions though…the realism you spoke of, and that real sense of danger in each scrimmage is what set this above other mecha anime I’ve seen.

    Could you guys recommend any more “Real Robot” anime like 08th MS Team? I’d appreciate it.

14. skoll September 5th, 2008 12:32 pm

    Excellent post, Crusader. 08th remains my favorite Gundam series to date, because the machines have WEIGHT and BELIEVABILITY despite the obvious impracticalities of creating a humanoid fighting machine of that side. More than that, it was refreshing to see the grunts’ struggle, those without plot-armor and instead make due with composite or even rolled homogenous plate.

15. bearzerger September 5th, 2008 12:49 pm

    @SnakeEatSnake
    I’m tempted to say Voltron or Zoids, but no, the level of realism in 08th MS is pretty much unheard of in a mecha anime. The best I can think of is you could try Legend of the Galactic Heroes, but that’s a space opera, so it’s not really the same.

16. Crusader September 5th, 2008 1:22 pm

    @lelangir
    The mecha here are much slower and much less nimble than other Gundams and it lends more towards the Mobile Suits being machines rather than over sized armor for the pilots. The team work for both sides was generally good, in the tank ambush you mentioned the Zekes made used of concealment, hull down, and debris to their advantage, even with inferior weapons in an ambush mos advantages of superior technology often end up negated.

    The last episode was bittersweet, but the change was rather jarring, but understandable since there was a change in director since the original guy (Kanda) died. Since a tragic real life problem in production occurred perhaps it was inevitable that there was a noticeable shift between the majority of the series and the last episode.

    The music was great all round, and having Sanders be a piano player indicated that een if he’s killed 6 mobile suits he was at one point a a civilian who was drafted into the the Feddie military. They all had lives before they ended up as members of the 8th Team. Unlike more recent Gundam pilots they were young adults who had built lives before their conscription since Eledore probably didn’t want to be there in the first place.

    @KYPMbangi
    Agreed most of the more recent Gundams seem to be more interested in retreading old ground and repackaging it into a new product to sell toys Fukuda was rather blatant when the BS that was Cosmic Era ended up being very much an overly long toy commercial. It revived the Gundam franchise as a product but I think the cost in terms of originality and spirit seem to have been irreversibly violated.

    Right now I don’t think that we will ever see a Gundam quite like 8th MS team which is a shame, but in the end makes it all the more special.

    @Halcyon
    While 8th MS Team is radically different from most other Gundams in the same way G Gundam was, it did follow the concept of real robot much more faithfully than any other Gundam before or since. For a franchise now so strongly associated with Gundam SEED, and GSD it is understandable how since 8th MS Team is almost the antithesis of the popular modern perception of how a Gundam series should be that the the 8th MS Team seems to be a black sheep. Bing a much less complicated series much of the enjoyment relies on sympathizing with the exceedingly average characters, and appreciating the realization of Gundam as a practical weapon rather than an invincible instrument of ideology.

    CN in the 1990s was a great time for anime in the places where you could get it. It introduced me to a lot of things like Gundam Wing, G Gundam, and Char’s Counter Attack. It is sad to see what has become of it but it was nonetheless a milestone for anime in the West.

    @Ratwedge
    Aesthetically I can see how 8th MS Team doesn’t score nearly as many points for cool mecha designs given the emphasis on samey mass production models. I still like many of the UC Gundams because they formed a coherent continuity. 0083 is another favorite of mine because it was the equivalent of “Top Gun” for Gundam.

    I like how it did not degenerate into beam spam and showed a period of transition to the beam technology that would be come more common place in later Gundams. There were beam weapons, but they were in such small numbers and had numerous technical complications that like many veterans the team opted for more reliable projectile based weapons even if they were inferior. The preparation of the GM Sniper’s coolant was indicative of how new this beam technology was to the Kojima battalion.

    The attrition rate for Zakus and Gundams is pretty much even, it was only Nickard and the legion of mechanics that kept the Kojima battalion in the fight despite the average piloting skill of the majority of the pilot pool.

    @Zentari
    While Gundam 00 has done somethings right in the latter part of the series, I still hope that they are taking more notes from 8th MS Team rather than Gundam SEED for the second half. It would be a shame if all they did was cut and paste from Zeta and Wing. At the very least let’s hope no more new Gundams show up aside from the mid season up grades for the titular cast.

    @Myssa Rei
    Shiro was the oldest to date, and its kind of gets kind of creepy when you consider how old Kiki was. Though in all fairness Kiki was only 10 years younger. I guess 10 Years After she would be a magnificent woman.

    @bearzerger
    Yeah 8th MS Team is everything that a modern Gundam is not. It was from an age when old guys could still kick a young pilots ass, sadly there are few old guy pilots any more.

    @IKnight
    Norris vs. 8th MS Team is still a good standard by which to measure what a good gritty real robot fight should be. Norris was not beat bu superior pilots, he was beat because the 8th MS team played it smart and wore him down, though at great cost. Too bad Norris’ efforts were kind of in vain though…but it was a great fight.

    The arrangement might have been artificial, but much of the realism was derived in how those situations were portrayed. Much of my appreciation for it was due to the little things like MS recovery teams, combined arms, liberal use of improvisation, and the emphasis on how an armored MS had sever limitations in terms of situational awareness. Much of it did parallel the tank crew experience much as it was in WWII which the OYW was based on.

    A degree of artistic license and story boarding was to be expected, but for the most part it kept faith with the grunt spirit and pathos of real robot. I think that there is a charm in simplicity at work here given how the more complicated you make it the more likely you are to fail on some fronts. Nevertheless I am glad we both agree that 8th MS Team is still one of the more unique Gundams within the franchise and is a really good series.

    @SnakeEatSnake
    For more real robot, I strongly recommend Patlabor and to a lesser extent Macross, Dai Guard, which is more of a spoof on how costly collateral damage can be. The term real robot is troublesome because the only qualifications are really mass production and tactile control surfaces. Admittedly there are few if any series that have the same level of realism to them as the 8th MS Team so inevitably for other real robot shows expectations for the weight and realism on par with 8th MS team will have to be reduced.

    @skoll
    I like that comparison to composite armor that the cast has. They aren’t invincible and at least two of them got seriously mangled. I take it you are a fan of the big, slow, and powerful side of mecha?

    Mobile suits may be impractical, but their incorporation here was so slick that you forget how inefficient they really are from a practical stand point. Nevertheless it was as real as a robot could get.

17. SnakeEatSnake September 5th, 2008 2:08 pm

    @Crusader
    So in other words, 08th MS Team is more or less the only one of its kind? I’ll check out Patlabor though…I’ve been meaning to get around to that anyway. Would you say the TV series is better or the movies?

    @Bearzerger
    LOGH interests me, but the length (110 eps?) is sorta off-putting.

18. skoll September 5th, 2008 2:09 pm

    @ Crusader

    Not slow, necessarily. Rhinos are fast, but also heavy, and it’s this kind of heaviness that I like, the feeling of momentum. I’ll give you an example. If you’ve watched Full Metal Panic, the first season, you’ll remember the first Arbalest/Venom fight, and right after Chidori soothes Souske’s insecurity in using a weapon system based on will an emotion than solid mechanics, he raises his mecha’s shotgun at Gauron. That particular action is burned into my brain as one of the most outlandish, excessive, and weightless movements I have ever seen a mecha make. It didn’t feel like the arms had any weight, or required any sort of wind-up that any artificial muscle inevitably must have. It was airy.

    Similarly, in Gundam SEED, the ‘Hero Mecha’ practically prance about the place. Another fact to consider is that in other mecha series, it never feels like the armor of the mecha interfaces correctly with incoming fire. It either causes fire to bounce away worthlessly, like the countless times in the Gundam metaseries where some shit-faced pilot tries to use his head vulcans against a mobile suit, or it doesn’t matter at all. 08th MS Team showed armor for what it is, a substance that distorts, breaks away, and absorbs damage.

    One thing I forgot to say, and I don’t want to criticize you, but I feel its important to touch on the difference between realism and verisimilitude. You say that IKnight claimed 8th isn’t realistic, and by the dictionary, he is absolutely right– but so is every mecha anime. Realism is closeness to reality, and Gundam strays far from our world of small arms and mechanical machines of war. Verisimilitude, on the other hand, is having the APPEARANCE of truth, or BELIEVABILITY, meaning, given a particular set of suspensions of disbelief, something makes sense and feels real in its own context.

19. Crusader September 5th, 2008 5:08 pm

    @SnakeEatSnake
    I never got to see the movies, but judging by the few episodes I saw subbed on IATV in the US it’s pretty good. Wish I still had cable though.

    @skoll
    Many mecha shows seem to operate on havok physics, and it comes as little surprise how dramatic effect can over take the principles of real robot. You’s dthink that with the progress of technology they could actually have real battle damage without fuss, sadly this is not the case.

    I think that 8th MS team is realistic in the way it portrays the basics of military life in general, though I agree given how fantastic a Gundam is that verisimilitude is the proper word for it. Learn something new every day I suppose, I never came across that word in college at least not in my science major.

20. Haesslich September 5th, 2008 5:30 pm

    “Real Robot” shows actually seem to focus more on the robot/mobile armor as a tool of war, rather than as a superweapon which lets individual soldiers defeat whole armies… which is how Gundam originally started, but later shows have moved more into Super Robot territory. With Super Robot shows, the robot’s as much the hero of the story as its pilot, whereas Real Robot shows focus on the pilot more than the robot as the hero.

    Real Robot shows tend to treat the mecha as the ‘cheapest possible unit issued to a soldier to allow them to survive’ rather than ‘most expensive unit possible in order to help them win battles easily’. That’s where shows like Macross the original or the original Gundam really shone – they were mass-produced or production units, weren’t invincible – just really tough – and weren’t god units the way later Gundams have turned out. It’s like the difference between an M-1 Abrams going out against a T-80 tank versus an M-1 fighting a horde of 2 foot high cavemen infants armed with stones a half-mile away; the latter has no chance to survive unless the M-1 crew is REALLY stupid and careless… which was how Gundam Wing and Gundam SEED Gundam pilots tended to lose their lives.

21. Crusader September 5th, 2008 6:58 pm

    @Haesslich
    I agree more with your view on how a real robot show differs from super robot shows, but it seems that the old definition of “more mechanical” basis as the principle definer of Real vs Super is going to have to be discarded. Given the small showing of Super Robot series in the old vein and the general twilight of true Real Robot shows I guess the current hybrid mecha show as exemplified by the more CE Gundams, Code Geass, and to a lesser extent Macross Frontier is pretty much the norm for years to come. Given how an expanded audience is what most series are going for these days it’s sad how much of the pathos exemplified in Real Robot by 8th MS Team has been lost in favor of more traditional super robot tropes.

    So in regards to one of Ms. Kikuko Inoue’s roles in 8th MS team how do you think Aina will stack up to Grace? It was kind of jarring to hear her voice as some one so sweet and idealistic after getting more accustomed to the always interesting Grace.

22. Zentari September 5th, 2008 8:16 pm

    @Crusader : I don’t doubt that ALL sides will have significant power-ups given how (fake) SFs are pretty much mainstream. What I DON’T want is Code Geass , as in a gundam shows up, is unbeatable for an episode or two and then suddenly even common fodder can kick it’s ass.I also REALLY liked how the meisters got their asses handed to them again and again.If they weren’t piloting gundams they would all be dead by now due to being outsourced , outmanned and outgunned .

23. Crusader September 5th, 2008 8:51 pm

    @Zentari
    I hope that there isn’t another TRANS-AM in store for the second season of Gundam 00. That way Ali can scan kill off a few of them like the weaklings they are. iF ti turns out like Code Geass then we’ll probably have to wait another decade until those people leave Sunrise to allow for another significant shift in the Gundam Franchise. Though they could always bring Tomino back.

24. Tenryu September 5th, 2008 10:08 pm

    Shiro Amada invented new way to use a beam saber, i remember when i first watched that i thought it was pure genius.

    Then came Loran Cehack, using the wrist power of a mobile suit to wash cloths, inventive but not so awe inspiring.

    i liked this series because it shows MS warefar is serious business… not just go into a MS and start shooting enemies down without consideration… which tends to happen a lot nowadays in new mecha anime.

25. random hero September 5th, 2008 11:59 pm

    @ SnakeEatSnake

    one real robot series i can recommend is gasaraki, admittedly there is a bit of mysiticism in it but the robots in the show are very realistically portrayed.

26. Haesslich September 6th, 2008 12:03 am

    random hero: One real robot series i can recommend is gasaraki, admittedly there is a bit of mysiticism in it but the robots in the show are very realistically portrayed.

    You mean, ‘realistically portrayed right up until the point that the large demons start running around towards the end of the show’. Patlabor’s more realistic than this in its portrayal of large mecha.

    Crusader: The point of real robot isn’t necessarily the mechanics, just as it wasn’t for ‘hard’ sci-fi, so much as a believable handwave behind the technology and a focus on the people who used it rather than the technology itself. It’s basically the difference between, say, Starship Troopers and GaiGaoGar perhaps. Or between Patlabor and Gurren Lagann.

    As for Kikuko Inoue, look for clips from MGS3 on YouTube which involve “The Boss”, who she played. Better than Aina.

27. random hero September 6th, 2008 12:15 am

    i never said it was better than patlabor, i was just recommneding a series, besides, barring the flashbacks the giant demon thing only ran around once and even then it only scored a body count of 2 TA’s, as well as demonstrating why swords aren’t much use against guns

28. bearzerger September 6th, 2008 2:08 am

    @SnakeEatSnake
    Haesslich mentioned another one which might be on a similar level as 8th MS: Starship Troopers. I’ve seen the six episodes Yoroshiku has released and it’s definitely in the right genre.

29. d3v September 6th, 2008 8:07 pm

    Great post, 08th Ms Team is my favorite Gundam series of all time – I actually collected it in fansubbed VHS tapes (back in the day before we were able to get everything from a series of tubes).

    Personally, I consider Shiro to be one of the better Gundam pilots simply because he doesn’t rely on sheer hot-bloodedness and GAR to win and actually uses his head.

30. d3v September 6th, 2008 8:15 pm

    @Haesslich
    If you want a character who is as close to a “best of Kikuko Inoue compilation”, then look no further than Grace from Macross Frontier. She can seem downright sweet and thoughtful at times, but is also quite cunning and devious (and not to mention sexy).

    As for Aina, well you can’t go wrong with what for all intents and purposes is Belldandy in a Mobile Armor (with matching flight suit).

31. Haesslich September 6th, 2008 8:29 pm

    d3v: We already mentioned it, or at least I did elsewhere, indicating this has got to be one of her meatier roles after years of the Belldandy Voice. Evil, plotting, vampish at times, while still able to go gentle… and being able to trash Sheryl’s ego using her gentle-evil voice (Ep 18).

    She’s like the hottest Cylon ever, really.

32. Crusader September 6th, 2008 8:43 pm

    @Tenryu
    No better use has yet been found for the beam saber after all these years…

    @Haesslich
    Not over emphasis on technological aspect per-se but it is one of the more stronger elements that differentiates the two, voice commands a la G-Gundam are much more super robot than real robot.

    Still since Aina was my first Kikuko Inoue role Aina is special for me. Grace is probably going to be more remembered than Cecile as the best Kikoku Inoue voiced character simply because it was an inspired choice by Kawamori and his team. I wonder who else the considered for the role of Grace. Nevertheless I think we can all agree that Kawamori made the right choice and Kikuko Inoue is having a ball being the dead smexy evil cylon that is Grace.

    @d3v
    You sir are hard core man. I was never that hard core to use VHS for fan subs or buy anime that way.

33. Haesslich September 7th, 2008 12:35 am

    Ep 22’s been subbed. Looks like Alto and Klein hang out together a lot more now… but then again, with Mikhail gone, she has to be the one to (gently) beat sense into his head. Or he likes to hang around nee-san types.

    By the way, my timeline? Luca just confirmed the dates of infection… which puts it a year out from when the 117th Research Fleet got destroyed. In other words, Grace DID find Sheryl after Mao and company apparently got killed.

34. Crusader September 7th, 2008 1:00 am

    Yes it has been subbed and how! What kind of man would pass up the chance to hang around one of the Greatest Meltrans of all Time?

    Yeah you win the time line thing no need to rub it in…

    Macross Frontier 22 Post inbound ETA 2 hours from now…so tell me comrade is the LZ hot?

35. Haesslich September 7th, 2008 1:38 am

    There is no LZ: Grace just went to town here, and Alto’s coming in with missiles to finish off whatever’s left with his ‘emo teenager scream’ at full throttle. And Luca definitely has made his decision; anyone who goes against Leon must die. Which may include Alto, should Sheryl decide that the ‘traitor to humanity’ is correct. But at this point, it looks like Ranka’s career is shot.

36. Crusader September 7th, 2008 1:49 am

    Copy that just call and we’ll bring the thunder, now how many shots of Grace and I fit in…

37. d3v September 7th, 2008 3:03 am

    @Crusader
    Well you have to consider that when I got those tapes, VHS was literally the only way to watch the 08th.

    @Haesslich
    I believe someone mentioned hat GRace was like having Belldandy and Urd in one single person. Although personally, I think she’s more like a combination Belldandy and Hilde.

38. Haesslich September 7th, 2008 4:20 pm

    I’d say with that giggle at the end that she’s more like Belldandy and Hild meet the Lord of Terror in one body. Such delight in carnage…

39. A.r. October 20th, 2008 7:13 pm

    Eh, 08th is alright. Shame what the second director did to it though. IMHO he turned it into little more than a Disney movie with giant robots, complete with Pwetty Pwincess Aina. Though Ghinius is still probably my favorite fictional character of all time. And even though I immensely dislike Aina from episode 7 on, I still made a custom doll of her (along with Ghinius and Shiro) and try to refrain from bashing her in my fanfiction. Go figure.

40. S.K. March 4th, 2009 11:04 am

    My personal favourite Gundam series, precisely for the reasons discussed here and now I have a foil to silence those who argue “doesn’t that show have giant mecha?” whenever I try to explain the realism depicted therein. Verisimilitude…ah hah!

    Anyway another Gundam series I feel holds to the real robot ideals rather well is 0080:War in the Pocket. This is not least because of the distressingly realistic response of the child protagonist to the war “Explosions! Cool! No school for me tomorrow, YAY!”
    I’ll admit that there are certain geriatric tropes present such as a Gundam that keeps standing no matter how much gets thrown at it (with a wince inducing revelation of the standard ridiculous Gundam colour scheme) and a love across divides that Shakespeare first thought up but there are still a great number of pros to this title. The Gundam is standing and not responding to its attacker because the projectile weaponry it uses, while not albe to pierce its prototype armor still panics the inexperienced (but well trained) pilot within. In an earlier attack a soldier is killed by overwatch fire when breaking cover against the orders of his superior while attempting to secure an objective. This the tragic end to an otherwise flawless team based attack on an enemy installation; each unit securing sub-objectives and covering their teammates when possible.
    Each of the Mobile suits has the cumbersome movement and feeling of weight (even in weightless space) that I feel is key to suspension of disbelief in a mecha series.
    I can only finish up with a depiction of how depressingly realistic the final death of one of the characters is revealed to be. Their sacrifice, doubtlessly tragic, is even later revealed to have been ultimately pointless, the romance ending in a tragic, unromantic and hard-hittingly realistic manner.

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