THAT Animeblog

96 Comments so far

1. QueenJaydes July 13th, 2008 1:36 pm

   Nice to see an unbiased opinion on this episode. Everywhere it’s a Suzaku/Lelouch fight that’s so annoying >< One of the main reasons I stick to this blog.
   I got left with a feeling of episode 22 though *shiver*

2. bob bobby July 13th, 2008 1:49 pm

   lol…. about Kallen she already knows they are royalty.. she is obviously playing a part and acting like she doesn’t or didn’t know….
   (C.C has already told her everything in the one year gap, it was confirmed in some interview or magazine.)

3. manga July 13th, 2008 1:56 pm

   Who was it that said that Suzaku wasn´t evil before? Hell now he´s starting to use drugs to get what he wants? Oh my god what a damn asshole he is.

   The part which I really dislike though, Kallen believing Lelouch actually would kill Shirley.

   Fucking no, Rolo didn´t get blown to pieces this time, hopefully he´ll meet his doom soon. There has never been a Sunrise character that I wanted to kill more than Rolo.

   But oh well. I need to see what Lelouch will do to outsmart his father in the next episode. What a blast it would be if Lelouch managed to put his Geass on his father. Instant win

4. toyoko July 13th, 2008 2:13 pm

   I bet all those paintings were made by Clovis. Being dead, he has way too much time on his hands.

5. Halcyon July 13th, 2008 2:35 pm

   They fished the Siegfried out of the sea, but not the Gawain? =(

   The Gawain’s systems were recycled into the Shinkiro(sp?), Lelouch’s new KnightMare frame.

   Great Episode, IMO. Lots of interesting revelations. Sunrise keeps us guessing with lots of twists and turns.

   It seems no matter what evidence is presented to Suzaku he’s convinced that Lelouch is a villain through and through.

   I don’t see a Kallen x Suzaku pairing, mostly because Suzaku is showing just how ruthless he can be, even to people that he knows.

   For the most part, Lelouch has tried not to involve his friends (and family) in his activities going to great lengths to protect them (ever since Season One’s hotel hijacking episode).

   I hope next week’s episode gives us some more insight into C.C.’s background and the nature of these “contracts” that Geass users have.

6. Calawain July 13th, 2008 3:04 pm

   @QueenJaydes

   Well we’ve had out or Lelouch vs. Suzaku discussions long ago. To be honest there isn’t a point anymore because most people realize what’s going on, they are both becoming much more similar then they’d like to admit.

   @Bob Bobby

   I don’t think she’s capable of faking much of anything. And the Drama CD episode you are referring to doesn’t go into details as to what she told Kallen about Lelouch. Just that she told her some things, unless there is some other source I’m not aware of.

   @Manga

   I’m sure Rolo will meet his end eventually, in fact I think many characters will expire by the end of this show.

   I don’t think he’s going to pull that off this quickly, it’s a bit pre-mature a few episodes before the end~

   @Toyoko

   He seems to be spending his time talking with daddy.

   @Halcyon

   Yeah but I think they said it was too wrecked to do anything to fix it whole, so they cannibalized it for parts to make other stuff.

   I don’t see that pairing either, one would doubt she would be rabu rabu for a guy looking to inject drugs in her for information.

   @Crusader

   You know, I don’t think a research facility for making superhumans would be considered “innocent.” I seem to remember Nazi facilities like that getting bombed quite often in WWII.

7. Ina July 13th, 2008 3:13 pm

   Wow, your review was amazing. I didn’t even notice half the things you did in this episode. I’m gonna need to watch it again…

8. Crusader July 13th, 2008 3:17 pm

   @Calawain
   So what if those Geass people were humping and breeding like rabbits they never went out and did some screwed up shit while they were in the cave. We are supposed to judge people for who they are right? So why not these Children of the Corn? We all know that things get ugly when a Geass user goes into the human world, like V2, Charles, Lulu, Rollo, Mao, and C2. What did those old men ever do to anyone? I thought we were making a pure and blue world here, and not continuing old policies…remember this is supposed to be a revolution, and the rebellion will not be vilified right?

9. bob bobby July 13th, 2008 4:13 pm

   no… there was a magazine that was getting questions about whether Kallen knew or not… and i don’t remember if it was the director or producer that said that C.C told her the details within that one year gap and it will be shown in the DVD short episodes that are going to come out… something like that..

10. XXX July 13th, 2008 5:25 pm

    Here’s what bob bobby is talking about, from the newsletter which has the Turn 15 keyword…(if I had a date or a proper number, I would provide this).

    “Kawaguchi’s column:

    I heard from Producer Yukawa that he received many mails asking if Kallen has found out Lelouch is a prince when Nunnally became the governor of Area11.

    Between Stage 25 of last season and Turn 1 of this season, C.C. and Kallen has
    been working together. (The illustration drama in the DVD/Blu-ray Vol.1 will be
    describing their life during this period. Don’t miss it!) During these days, C.C. already told Kallen about why Lelouch chose to become Zero, and he’s a Britannian prince.

    C.C. and Kallen are so different in personality, yet they fit so well together.
    See you next week!”

    I didn’t translate this, someone on GameFAQs did, so I’m not responsible for its contents, etc. etc. Might want to ask around to confirm it.

11. EvilDevil July 13th, 2008 5:38 pm

    “And one could hear the million cries of the Schniezel x Canon fangirls”
    let them cry, their tears will flood like the river…

    …urgh, I cant imagine Susaku and Kallen together… I rather see NunnallyxKallen pair rather than this…

12. Suma Sang July 13th, 2008 6:00 pm

    Canon makes me uneasier than even Psycho Rolo…Don’t know why. (He himself did tell Milly that he is ‘weird’.)

    The scene with Toudou and Chiba-in a hotel room-with a bed for two-and a plate of sliced apples apparently (which I failed to notice before reading your blog) did raise my eyebrow. But they make one kick ass couple, yes.

    “Drugzaku”…*snickers*. Good one!

    @Crusader:
    Lelouch wants to get rid of the source of Geass in Shirley’s honor, the “source of sin” as he put it. And the source happens to be this Geass cult and V.V. where they breed Geass users and such. Yes, the kids are innocent, but they are “Rolos” waiting to happen. And do we need anymore Rolos running loose in the world? And yes, Lelouch is contradicting himself, because he wants to be the only Geass user on the planet and continue to have the power of the king for himself. But the slaughter, while it does work in his plans and favor, is not a pretense for Shirley’s death. This Geass cult would only complicate things for the peaceful world that Lelouch strives to create as well. So, it is a win-win situation for him (and not meaningless slaughter, while it was coldhearted, unlike what happened with the Nazis and Jews).

    Cornelia is my ‘hero’ine.

    I will probably get flamed for this, but I can’t completely hate Psycho Rolo. *sighs* Though I did like Shirley (one of the very, very few innocent characters, aside from Nunnally, Euphemia, etc.), Rolo has been a pawn almost his entire life, which led to him being f*cked up, so you can’t really really really really really hate him, can you? (Since his f*cked up actions are not entirely his fault?) Yes, this means I am kind of hesitant to see him be killed off just yet. *Runs screaming from the flamers*

    Code Geass gives me life. (Sad, I know.)

13. QueenJaydes July 13th, 2008 6:34 pm

    @Calawain
    I see your point, but it still happens. I’m still waiting for Suzaku to get over himself and realize that lelouch and him really aren’t that different in ideals. The ending pictures (and archetypal imagery) all point to suzaku joining Lelouch at the very last minute. This is the first (and only) time i’ll ever compare this to death note, but like in death note, there are so few “holders of justice” Who actually is “justice” anymore? All I can think of is Nunally and Rivalz. Rivalz is too small a character though.
    @ Suma Sang (don’t worry, not a flame) I truly liked rolo’s character before episode 13 because, to me, I thought he was getting better, a little less like the geass kids. Apparently that was a mask ><

14. Crusader July 13th, 2008 7:01 pm

    @Suma Sang
    Tacitus once said that, “they make a wasteland and call it peace.” That is what Lulu is doing right now and truth be told there is nothing more peaceful than desolation.

    Rolo is awesome and long may he kill!

    Make way for Rolo-nii!
    Say hey! It’s Rolo-nii!

    Hey! Clear the way of his motorbike cab!
    Hey you!
    Let him through!
    Or it’s you he’ll stab!
    You don’t wanna be the first one to earn his ire!

    Make way!
    Here he comes!
    Sound the bells! Load the guns!
    ‘Cause you’re gonna hate this guy!

    Rolo-nii! Murderous He!
    Rolo al-Sarshes
    Kills for fun
    Give him a gun
    Then watch the spree!
    Now knightmare pilots are dead.
    And Urabe’s vent-ed
    ‘Cause Rolo’s sick in the head–Undoubtedly!

    Rolo-nii! Mighty is he!
    Rolo al-Sarshes!
    Strong as ten regular men
    Take it from me!
    He faced the unarmed horde
    One thousand kids with no swords.
    But who sent Shirley to the Lord?
    Why, Rolo-nii!

    He’s got so many big backers
    Secret armies
    But they’d work for free
    When it comes to expensive type knightmares
    Yeah he’s had a few,
    I’m telling you,
    It’s a world-wide conspiracy!

    Rolo-nii! Shouta is he!
    Rolo al-Sarshes!
    No goatee! I wish it could be!
    Closer to me!
    Well, get on out in that square
    Come steel your nerves and prepare!
    To gawk and grovel and stare at Rolo-nii!

    He’s got ninety-five tiny little sisters!
    (He’s called the rebellion, let’s fight the rebelliom)
    And to join him he charges no fee!
    (’Cept your siblings! Kill your siblings!)
    He bends time to his will for fun!
    (Proud to work for him)
    Time bows to his whim!
    It’s best for them!
    It’s just scared into loyalty to Rolo-nii!
    Rolo-nii!

    Rolo-nii!
    The adversary! Rolo al-Sarshes!
    Lloyd, wishes that he, was half as crazy
    Well he saw the Vincent and thought “Why,–I think I’ll give it a try.”
    Next thing you know, Shirley’s hit the floor,
    He’s got beams, over-drive
    And fang-oos galore!
    Takes an alias, heads out to China,
    And shows Stupid Urabe what for!
    Can’t flee from Rollo-nii!

15. justam July 13th, 2008 7:16 pm

    non-geass related.

    That Gundam trailer had me drooling for a bit, that is before I saw the 00 gundam fly in. God it was ugly… I had initially seen its design on one of those scans from Newtype, and had a pretty low opinion of it. I was hoping it’d look a bit better when in motion. Unfortunately, it looks even uglier when it flies around! The 00 gundam doesn’t have Exia’s flippy sword thing anymore either, instead, I think he’s holding a gunblade of sorts. *sighs* If the 00 looks this horrible, I really don’t want to imagine what Keldim (Dynames upgrade) or the Seraph(?) (Virtue upgrade) will look like when flying. That being said though, the Kyrios upgrade does look rather nice and… uh… aerodynamic?

16. Eldar July 13th, 2008 7:48 pm

    According to the internets, using drugs to interrogate someone is now equivalent to a war crime while murdering the elderly, women and children is now legitimate defense. Oh how people flipflop.

17. Onizuka July 13th, 2008 8:49 pm

    firstly about Rollo since he admitted to stabbing Shirley well thats that forget the benefit of the doubt i just hope he dies already the sad thing about all this is that Rollo was showing some signs of improvement (as stated above by Queen Jaydes)

    when i read the overview of the ep from suki and later on watched it i could not help but think that Calawain would rage again but the chances of Drugzaku(nice nickname by the way*snicker*) is really low as much as i hate Drugzaku i noticed that his hands where shaking when he took the box out so he might be just bluffing or if he is serious i hope that Nunnaly was eavesdropping so that she could stop him

    Lulu going genocide on the order was not really surprising since Shirley really was important to him also we already had the inclination that he was on the warpath pity those that stand in his way or his desired destination

18. Calawain July 13th, 2008 8:50 pm

    @Ina

    I watch it more than once before I write this stuff, and add that to my lawyer’s instincts and I tend to pick up on a lot of stuff.

    @Crusader

    I’m not saying what he did was right, he did it in a fit of rage over Shirley. Instead of blaming himself he outsourced it to the cult. I was just making the point that these folks are not so innocent.

    @Bob Bobby/XXX

    Ah I didn’t know about that one. I’ve listened to the Sound Drama from the most recent CD that is about what Kallen and C.C. were up to in that year but I didn’t know they also talked about everything. I’ll buy that for now, seems somewhat believable. Although Kallen being able to bluff her way out of anything strikes me as odd, she hasn’t been able to do it in the past.

    @EvilDevil

    The wrath of yaoi fangirl shippers can be quite scary, we must tread carefully.

    @Suma Sang

    Rolo may have a reason why he did what he did, in his own mind he really was helping his brother. Although it was influenced by the mention of Nunally, Rolo probably did it for his twisted reasons. And those reasons are born of the environment he was brought up in, as an assassin.

    @QueenJaydes

    I’d prefer they didn’t unite in the end to do anything aside from protecting Nunally. I’d hate to see all that buildup of animosity disappear, they need to really have at each other in the end. Of course I hope Lelouch wins, but that’s a whole nother story =)

    @Onizuka

    I think many of us would like a particularly bloody end for Rolo, we’ll see. And yes, we can only hope Nunally comes in to save Kallen, because my rage would know no bounds.

19. Rob July 13th, 2008 10:36 pm

    I’m starting to get tired of seeing Suzaku blaming Lelouch for everything wrong in that world. It’s like watching an episode of Inuyasha again. >_< (Not to say there’s anything wrong with Inuyasha.) “There are demons in this village, it must be Naraku’s fault!” “Demons are planning to attack the village! This must be Naraku’s fault!” “Look! That little girl over there just sneezed! Now I know this is Naraku’s doing!” Jeez, Sazaku, give Lelouch a break. He is an evil bastard (in his own way) but he’s not responsible for everything that has gone wrong in Code Geass.

20. Crusader July 13th, 2008 10:52 pm

    @Calawain
    I don’t know man even if the children are super soldiers in training does that mean that at that stage they are evil? Even if they might turn out to be future terrorists even I have some reservations about conducting a preemptive strike to prevent a future problem from starting. The old folks maybe but I doubt those kids had much say in becoming what they were…

    @Rob
    Having evidence that Shirley killed herself under geassed circumstances is not going to be easily explained away without Lulu. Lulu’s preferred method of killing is to geass people into killing each other so there is a precedent and Lulu’s done it often enough that it looks like the streak of a serial killer. Lulu was involved and to his knowledge the only one with the Geass of Command is Lulu.

    Given how Lulu prides himself on everything going as planned letting Shirley die accidentally during an operation seems like a stretch. It doesn’t help that Lulu wiped out a bunch of evidence so it looks like a cover up. If it was an accident or an unforeseen thing then why didn’t Lulu go pay his respects? His presence, the cover up, and his noted absence from the funeral seem to make Lulu guilty circumstantially in any cases seeing as how Lulu has a penchant for destroying hard evidence the only evidence you get is going to be circumstantial.

21. Coaxen July 14th, 2008 1:59 am

    I hope the Emperor noticed that Lelouch is one of his best creations. Our good old Charlie is going to retire and give his business to the best one – either Schneizel or Lelouch. Or Nunnally, if she learns how to use propaganda, censorship and guns.

    It’s naive to think that any army kills only soldiers ;P
    War is a shitty thing, people get killed by accident and even superheroes can’t help it. That old guy with a cane and a puppy may be hiding a gun somewhere! You can’t just pop in and not harm anyone – unless you have an extremely big screen with lulu and his Geass telling everyone to sit down, have some tea, and cooperate. Too bad the writing staff decided to use the old way of solving problems, genocide, that is.

    Machiavelli knew such basics of being a good Sovereign.

22. Omisyth July 14th, 2008 4:09 am

    Might as well kill the kids with Geass or you’d probably end up with more Rolos on your hand. And NO ONE wants that -_-.

23. Halcyon July 14th, 2008 6:16 am

    @Crusader

    Having evidence that Shirley killed herself under geassed circumstances is not going to be easily explained away without Lulu. Lulu’s preferred method of killing is to geass people into killing each other so there is a precedent and Lulu’s done it often enough that it looks like the streak of a serial killer. Lulu was involved and to his knowledge the only one with the Geass of Command is Lulu.

    This is a fair point except for the fact that the only people Lelouch has Geass’d into suicide are Britannian soldiers and support staff, he’s never Geass’d a civilian into suicide (not that I’ve seen anyway). Furthermore, this contradicts the entire point of Lelouch jumping off a building to save Shirley in the previous episode. Why risk would Lelouch risk his life to save her if he was just going to kill her later on? Suzaku’s not being logical. He’s allowing his personal vendetta against Lelouch to color his judgment. This episode only illustrates how much farther Suzaku is separating from his moral high ground. While Lelouch may be a manipulator, Suzaku himself has shown that he’s willing to use his friends, allies and close associates to get what he wants (Ex. When he lied to Nunnally and used her to test if Lelouch got his memories back). IMO, using a blind, crippled girl as a litmus test is pretty low. Especially when it’s someone he grew up with.

    Another important thing to point out is the fact that Shirley expressly told Suzaku that she liked Lelouch and has forgiven him for his past transgressions. In light of all this information, what motivation could Lelouch have for Geassing her into Suicide? What Suzaku is doing here is transposing the entire Euphemia situation onto Shirley. He doesn’t realize that Lelouch’s Geassing of Euphemia was entirely accidental and that despite being forced to kill her (to save countless other Japanese), Lelouch also mourned and regretted her death.

    Given how Lulu prides himself on everything going as planned letting Shirley die accidentally during an operation seems like a stretch.

    Shirley was an unforeseen variable. The entire reason why Lelouch left Shirley with Suzaku was to avoid getting her involved in his conflict. From Lelouch’s standpoint, she was already taken care of. It was Shirley’s impetus to run into the battle area to help Lelouch.

    It doesn’t help that Lulu wiped out a bunch of evidence so it looks like a cover up. If it was an accident or an unforeseen thing then why didn’t Lulu go pay his respects? His presence, the cover up, and his noted absence from the funeral seem to make Lulu guilty circumstantially in any cases seeing as how Lulu has a penchant for destroying hard evidence the only evidence you get is going to be circumstantial.

    In all fairness, there really wasn’t much evidence to begin with. There was a gun, which was used by a professional assassin (Rolo) to commit the act and maybe some footprints? But (from the episode), it looks like Lelouch went straight from the scene of the crime, to plotting for the destruction of the Geass Cult. There was no grand coverup to conceal the truth.

    I believe this issue, along with others, may be resolved in Episode 17 (if the spoilers are any indication).

    But yeah, the bottom line is, it doesn’t make any sense to save a girl just to kill her later on. And just because Shirley’s dead, it doesn’t give Suzaku the greenlight to use Gestapo tactics in trying to extract information from Kallen!!

24. jack July 14th, 2008 7:16 am

    @Halycon

    Of course Kallen reached the same conclusion herself, with less immedaite information, even faster…

    Both elevens that have peaked behind the GM screen came to the conclusion “yeah, that’s something Lelouch would do.” Telling.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going back into mourning fo Suzaku Kurugi’s idealism. Kid finally threw in the towell. It was the responsible call to make, yeah, but something rare has gone from the world.

    Eh, it’ll probably be back soon enough once this council of despair crashes and burns.

25. Suma Sang July 14th, 2008 11:08 am

    @QueenJaydes:

    Rolo won me over when Lelouch used the “older brother” card on him (when Lelouch pretended to protect him because he couldn’t forget his brotherly feelings of love) and with the intent of destroying Rolo later on. Yet, Rolo officially killed what loyalty I had for his character when he offed Shirley from the stage AND lied about how Shirley was going after Lelouch to shoot him for revenge. Despite this, Rolo is still a VICTIM, and therefore, I feel hesitant if he were to get offed from the show just yet.

    @ Crusader:

    I agree with Tacitus. And I agree that Lelouch is committing destruction and murder in his path to supposed “peace”. However, the question here is: between Lelouch and Britannia, who is the lesser/greater evil? Destruction, murder/casualties of innocents, etc. is inevitable in war, and really, peace is only that temporary period of stasis inbetween wars (since, according to some scholars, war is inevitable, and there will be wars in the future). And Lelouch’s ultimate goal is not peace, it’s freedom from Britannia, since they ARE trying to take over the frickin world here. Lelouch just BELIEVES that peace will come hand in hand with the destruction of Britannia (the ultimate problem and cause of all evil in his POV), but we all know in reality that true peace is nonexistent and a utopia is only a dream. SO unless an individual has the power of GOD and can end wars in a non-evil fashion (at least mankind’s standards of evil), it is impossible to get rid of the gray and black and whatnot that unavoidably comes with human nature and thus, war. And Lelouch does not have the power of God, only the power of the King, so his tactics and decisions will have fault no doubt. But at least he is the lesser evil of the two.

    @ Calawain:

    Yes, I agree that Rolo is twisted and does many twisted things. However, as I mentioned to QueenJaydes, the boy is still a VICTIM. Shirley was a VICTIM. Even Lelouch is a VICTIM. Heck, even V.V. is … NOT a victim. But almost everyone on this show is a VICTIM. That said, should Rolo necessarily have a BLOODY end?

26. Crusader July 14th, 2008 1:29 pm

    The way I see it at least under Britannia you know who the ones in charge are, but under Lulu the only major difference is that you have a piece of paper called a constitution of little power. Under Lulu’s new system you get to keep your national name but no nation has control over its own destiny, after all if the Saudis want out of the war it seems the they are not allowed to opt out. Peace will not come once Lulu Balkanizes the world. What he will end up doing is suppressing wayward states and force them to remain in his kind of government where he is the Princeps, the first among equals. However Lulu hasn’t been treating people like equals, but more like tools. With Britannia you get more honesty, under Lulu you get false pride. No much better if you ask me, and let’s not forget that V2 said that Lulu is much like Charles…

27. frankeinstein July 14th, 2008 2:11 pm

    @crusader: Lol tell me ur being sarcastic. Cuz the way I see it, this is war and the guy can do whatever he wants if it is to achieve victory. The ends still justify the means in that sense, plus he never claimed the moral high ground anyway. After the war’s over, being the charismatic leader who relies on the people’s support as he is, Lelouch will have to restore equality & sovereignty all over the world (the Japanese won’t have their Sakuradite being stolen by foreigners anymore, and Lelouch’s not so interested in ruling the world in the 1st place). Also, think about it like this: he tricks people into thinking he was treating them nicely, but he’d still do the same things if he weren’t acting at all, so what’s the big deal? Unless he f*cks the world up spectacularly at some point, I continue to have nothing against him.
    But what’s so exciting about it all you ask? At least you’ll no longer have a big fat emperor promoting lunatic social darwinism publicly and you know there’s a lot of good fighting to come…

28. Crusader July 14th, 2008 2:59 pm

    Once the war is over Lulu doesn’t have to do anything…once he is master of the world what is there to stop him from disregarding his promises? He has no moral high ground, and has no moral scruples left, so it is just as likely that power will seduce him just like it has every one else. I don’t think he is fighting for freedom for any one but himself given how he basically pointed a gun at the Saudis so that they would do what he wanted them to do. Sure he can do whatever he wishes, but does that make his war just because he’s spent so many lives for a marginal change in the status quo? Saudi Arabia had their freedom and their national destiny in their hands and theirs alone it was not Britannia that knocked down their doors and forced them to submit to some distant government. Lulu does not have to do anything he does not want to do.

    As they say the apple does not fall far from the tree, Charles’ and Lulu share much of the same ruthlessness. Lulu will get big and fat one day given how adverse to exercise he is, so a lunatic old fag or a lunatic emo new fag? Not much difference if you ask me, but we shall see if Lulu can walk away from power absolute. Just because he is a rebel does not make him a decent bloke, if you have read anything about Africa in recent years you would know that rebels are not always decent people. Every dictator is charismatic, they all have to be good orators to get their followers. Lulu is still a politician just because he is young does not mean he can avoid the trappings of his job.

29. Code_Geass July 14th, 2008 3:13 pm

    Can Suzaku get on my nerves even more?? Yes. Possibly in the next episode… They should rescue Kallen quickly

    Corenlia and Lelouch alliance is what I am counting on… she gets it, but Suzaku is still stuck on blaming only Leoulch for Euphie’s death… Does he know abt V.V?

30. jack July 14th, 2008 3:29 pm

    Calm down there, sailor.

    Suzaku may have a different opinion on V.V., mostly due to the context that he met him in. To Cornelia, he’s this random guy handing out demigod powers to destructive maniacs like halloween candy which got her little sister/surrogate daughter destroyed utterly and then killed.

    To Suzaku he’s the guy that appeared at the lowest moment of his life, said “There’s this thing called geass..” which let him get a grip on what had just happenned, and then pulled Nunnally out of a warzone slightly after Lelouch pointed some heavy ordinance at her (Geass misfire? Imagine a gun misfire at that point. They do happen.) so he’d fall into a trap trying to keep Lulu from killing her and slightly before Tamaki got a chance to shoot her with the rest of the students so he’d surrender.

    I think Suzaku likes V.V. just fine.

31. Halcyon July 14th, 2008 7:23 pm

    @Crusader

    I don’t think your idea of Lelouch being a World Dictator is feasible. For one, there are other individuals that match him in intellectual prowess (See: Xing Ke). It would be highly naive to think that Xing Ke is the only man (other than Schneizel) that can match Lelouch intellectually in the world. Lelouch has made it clear that he’s not interested in ruling/governing other countries. Instead, he wants a coalition of independent countries unified to combat Britannia. Once Britannia has been conquered there is no reason for Lelouch to continue on as Zero.

    As indicated in earlier episodes, he intends to return to a normal life (which includes Ashford Academy and Nunnally) once his mission is complete.

    As for Saudi Arabia, weren’t they part of the EU or Chinese Federation? I don’t think Geass has mentioned many independent countries in the world at all. To my knowledge the world had been carved up between 3 Superpowers: Britannia, EU and the Chinese Federation.

32. Crusader July 14th, 2008 7:54 pm

    Key word “intended to,” but Shirley is dead and how many more will die? He can’t go back ever again, not after the shit he’s pulled. The official story is that he’s building a coalition, and by suppressing Saudi Arabia with force he is, but this is no coalition of the willing. He wants the power of a King, armed with such power will be so easy for him to go back to being a mere citizen? I think not thus far his cause has changed more than once so it’s not that he is wanting in cause, but he has maintained a thirst for power. Everytime he fights Britannia he believes that he needs more power. That is what he is underneath the facade of building a pure and blue world he’s still a terrorist willing to do any thing to fulfill his goals. At this point Loli-con Li is going to expire long before Lulu and if there is resistance to his new world order there will always be conflict hence Lulu will be fighting to keep what he has gained through the blood of millions. Lulu has magic he cannot lose for very long intelligence means nothing once you have Geass Magic and he’s one of the few left who have it. There are probably people as smart as Lulu but no one has geass like Lulu other than Charles who will die.

    The same can be said of any revolutionary neither Lenin, Mao, or Castro went back to being John Q. Public once the fighting was over, I have doubts that Lulu can go back if people find out that he was Zero. Once he leaves then what will become of his band of terrorists? They obviously could not pull together without him so it seems doubtful that Lulu can just pack up and leave after tearing the world to pieces and forcing the more reluctant nation states to go along with his plans. No dictator ever admits to wanting power mind you.

    Actions not words will define Lulu’s new order and thus far he’s had quite a massacre on his hands. Shirley and Euphie are dead as the result of his rebellion and C2 did prophecy that he would be alone, and no one is more alone than a dictator.

33. The Sojourner July 14th, 2008 8:51 pm

    I see that Suzaku wants attention and he got it!

34. Halcyon July 14th, 2008 9:04 pm

    @Crusader

    You never indicated whether Saudi Arabia was already being occupied by one of the other SuperPowers or not. Who’s to say he’s not liberating them with some help from local forces? I think you’re misinterpreting Lelouch’s intentions. He doesn’t want the power OF a king. He wants the power to DESTROY a king, namely the Emperor. If you’ll recall back in Episode 8, he had a very poignant discussion with Suzaku (being fleeing with the 1 Million Zeroes) about what course of action to take when confronting evil. Lelouch blatantly stated that he would become a greater evil in order to topple the current evil. This is no secret. Even way back in Season One, when he revealed his identity to get the support of the former head of the Kaguya family (I forget his name), he willingly chose to walk the path of destruction.

    Of course Lelouch has a thirst for power. He openly stated as such in episode one of Season 2. But why does he want that power? To change the current class system that reinforces inequities based on Nationality/Birth (e.g. Britannian vs. Non-Britannian). Lelouch needs more power because the Emperor has something Lelouch also has… a Geass, which puts them on equal footing. Lelouch needs a trump card, an advantage in order to beat his opponent. Currently, with the destruction of the Geass cult they are more evenly matched than before.

    Lelouch has magic that comes with a price. If he uses it too much, the Geass will eventually consume him as stated by C.C. on more than one occasion. The Geass is not something Lelouch can use indefinitely without some sort of blowback. It’s a double-edged sword and each time he uses it, it puts him closer to the edge of losing control. And even the Geass has its limits. Firstly, he must directly look someone in the eye to use it, which won’t work if someone’s piloting a KnightFrame or wearing shades (like Mao). Secondly, even if he DOES manage to pull of a Geass on someone, he can never use it on the same person again, afterwards. Thirdly, the Geass isn’t all-powerful, as even Euphemia showed some resistance to it before finally succumbing to its power. Who’s to say there aren’t more people out there that are resistant to Geass? Or even immune like C.C. and V.V. are?

    You can’t really blame Shirley’s death on Lelouch. She was practically trying to kill herself mere minutes before she ACTUALLY died. LOL. If anything, that was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Point of fact is, Lelouch can not be a World Dictator and still be with Nunnally. Nunnally is Lelouch’s raison d’etre and without her, he’d be just another Refrain addict. Once Lelouch has secured the world from the threat of the Britannian Empire the only route left to him is to leave the world in the competent hands of people like Toudoh and Kaguya and retire to his normal life beside Nunnally. He can either have the world or have Nunnally but he can’t have both and we’ve seen time and time again that Lelouch is willing to pick Nunnally over victory (Season 1’s final two episodes and episode 6/7 on Season 2).

    It’s really a no-contest. Lelouch doesn’t want the responsibility of running the world. He just wants to get back at his father for letting his mother die and make the world safer for Nunnally by eliminating what he sees as a threat to her continued existance(namely the Britannian Empire itself).

35. Suma Sang July 14th, 2008 9:06 pm

    @ Crusader:

    Tools? The emperor’s flesh and blood children are tools to him. And, equals? The emperor treats no one as his equal with the exception of V.V. (who’s also still a tool to him). And pride? Britannia strips away your identity as a nation and as an individual and gives you a number. I don’t believe Lelouch gives false pride; he’s able to rally allies with the promise of independence and gaining back the pride they had lost upon Britannia’s control. Again, in the realm of politics and war, everyone is a tool. At least in Lelouch’s case, he is the lesser of two evils. And on a lighter note, I guess it takes a Charles to defeat a Charles.

    In response to Lelouch’s army forcing Saudi Arabia to choose sides…Schneizel had just taken over half of the E.U. and Britannia is planning to conquer the Chinese Federation through open war or negotiation and threats (before that, Schneizel schemed, with an arrange marriage b/w the first prince and the empress, to have half Chinese Federation territory in exchange for giving the Eunuchs favor with Britannia and the promise of nobility status). Britannia is moving forward with world domination. Lelouch is recruiting a coalition of independent nations to stop and defeat Britannia. It is inevitable that it will be Lelouch’s army vs. Britannia in the end; there are only two sides. Saudi Arabia would get roped in on either side either way. Lelouch did not jeopardize their sovereignty; their sovereignty will be jeopardized if Britannia wins.

    In response to Lelouch getting seduced by his power and taking over the world…in a previous episode, he’s realized he wants things to return to normal, to happier times (Student Council and Ashford Academy). Naïve, yes, but that’s what he realizes he now values. Lelouch originally wanted to destroy Britannia for Nunally, because of the Emperor and his Darwinistic theory that the strong should survive and the weak should perish, and since Nunally is considered weak due to her disabilities, Lelouch refuses to live in such a world. His reasons have become less self-centered (solely for the sake of
    Nunally) and geared more towards others (Ashford Student Council, Kallen, etc.) as the show progresses. His army consists of a coalition of independent nations who want their sovereignty to remain intact; this is their reason to join up with him since its obviously going to become a war between Britannia vs. everyone else in the end. And with Britannia, you can throw sovereignty out the window. Lelouch can take off Zero’s mask for good once they win the war since there will no more need for him. He won’t be a dictator; he’ll be a hero, and I’m sure people won’t care what he does after the war. They’ll expect him to vanish, I’m sure.

    In response to Lelouch so far having a massacre on his hands…Massacre? What Clovis did in episode 1 of season 1, slaughtering that section of Area 11 mercilessly, was massacre. The Geass cult was definitely a dangerous card in the emperor and V.V.’s hands, being used in some manner that could destroy the world (according to that general guy). When Lelouch wiped the Geass cult out, while it was still a massacre of sorts, it definitely lacked the ruthlessness that Clovis’ did.

    Lastly, Euphie (intentionally, to a degree) and Shirley (unintentionally) were sacrifices that Lelouch made; these are the kinds of sacrifices that will inevitably lead to this prophesized isolation of Lelouch that you speak of, not because he will become a dictator. Lelouch was aware that there would be sacrifices from the start, but it didn’t really sink in until it actually happened (e.g. losing Euphie). His character, however, has changed since season 1; he was more callous and selfish when all of this had started, but now he’s realized he doesn’t want to lose anyone else he cares about (e.g. Kallen and his adamant declaration of promising to rescue her). He’s realized that it’s not just for Nunally anymore, but for the Black Knights and so forth. He’s finally looking at the bigger picture and now has others’ interests at heart as well. The fact that Lelouch HAS undergone a change of character is something you must take into account.

    @ Frankenstein:

    You have touched on some good points. Lelouch does claim no moral high ground; he knows what he’ll have to do to be victorious (the sacrifices and such). And the majority of Lelouch’s power does stem from the support of the people (the other portion, through the power of Geass). Britannians gain credibility through using an imperial monarchy (nobility and ranks and such); Lelouch’s credibility comes from giving the defeated a cause and being the leader of that cause. Anything other than that cause and people will not support him, which will lead to his loss of credibility, and therefore, lead to his loss of power.

    @ Halcyon:

    I agree. Xing Ke is a good example to bring in. He’s only allying himself with Lelouch because it’s in his best interests to do so (for the Chinese Federation and the empress). If Lelouch threatens that, then Xing Ke will no doubt retaliate. And YES, Lelouch has no inclination to rule the world once Britannia is defeated; he wants things to return to normal, to the time when everyone was happy (a.k.a. Student Council and Ashford Academy). This is what he’s realized he wants, as I’ve mentioned to Crusader.

36. Suma Sang July 14th, 2008 9:33 pm

    @ Halcyon (continued, since I just saw your post just now):

    And good point: there could be a misinterpretation of Lelouch’s intentions concerning Saudi Arabia. But I’ve already mentioned above that whether or not they want to join with Lelouch’s army, choosing a side between Lelouch or Britannia will be inevitable in the end. And I agree that Nunally would not want him to be a world dictator (and Nunally IS priority in his life), so this is one more reason why he will NOT become a world dictator. Lastly, I agree that Lelouch is only striving for a safer world for Nunally because Britannia IS a threat to her existence with all the emperor’s social darwinist crap (as I’ve mentioned above to Crusader) and that he’s not interested in world domination, unlike his father.

    And yes, though Lelouch treads on the path of destruction and power, his actions and decisions do not point to him following in the steps of a dictator. So far his power has only been used towards his goal of defeating Britannia, nothing more, nothing less. It’s not corruption or tyranny; it’s strategy.

    And I can’t stress enough, though Lelouch has agreed to be the greater evil to achieve victory, between him and his father, he is still the LESSER evil of the two.

37. Crusader July 14th, 2008 9:41 pm

    @Halcyon
    They used the word suppressed and if the locals wanted to join in there would have been no need for Todou to go in to negotiate, he’s a fighter not a diplomat. I have heard the cries for change before a paradise on earth where there will be no poor where every one is equal, and it has always ended tragically. Lulu’s rhetoric beautiful as it may be does not change the fact that his methods are brutal and will continue to be brutal because of necessity of building a utopia. So once big bad Britannia is gone I suppose mankind will all just start loving one another a big huggie bunch?

    Lulu kept Rolo alive despite the dangers Lulu was master of Rolo so it was his little weapon that killed Shirley for his sake. Don’t try to crucify the victim, we all know that it was Lulu’s insistence that Rolo be allowed to live that doomed Shirley.

    If Toudo and Kaguya were competent they would not be in the position that they were in once Lulu left the field. No one ever intends on becoming a dictator, it just happens they end up there. But in good time we shall see this new world that Lulu wants and we shall see if Nunnally will tolerate his presence after finding out all the things he has done for “her” sake. Lulu has Orange-kun he has infinite geass. We all love the rebel leader, and often we forget that guys like Mugabe were once rebels. Don’t be so foolish to think that people can just walk away from power so easily, historically this has not been the case and the way things are going Lulu had a paradise and he lost it. But we shall see if this new age will be much different from the old.

    @Suma Sang
    Indeed that if that is the case then we should be allowed to massacre some but not others. For one man ought to be allowed to function as judge jury and executioner…Moreover support for Lulu’s little Saudi adventure is a tacit endorsement of pre-emptive strike, it’s not so easy to call it “just.” Even here if Lulu says that they are a threat it must be true for Lulu cannot lie right?

    Ruthlessness tends to make soul dark and have less complaint about other “necessary” deeds that will be taken to ensure utopia. Lulu has changed he’s become accustomed to killing his friends and forgetting about them, not once have we heard anything about a plan for rescuing Kallen…

    Lulu is a terrorist he’s labeled his enemies as short sighted and that he knows what is best for them. He is right now the big brother of his little coalition ultimate power rests with him, he does not have to answer to the council of rubber stampers. It will be interesting to see if his men are willing to continue the slaughter once questions are raised we shall see if he can tolerate dissent. If the ends do justify the means then we shall see to what end this will truly amount to. I just don’t see much difference between father and son. Right now his followers seem to be eying one another with suspicion.

38. liathgirl July 14th, 2008 10:40 pm

    I have a theory about the ‘lies’ that V.V has told, one of which could be the death of Lelouch’s mother. Also, V.V is the direct reason why Suzaku hates Lelouch. Although I don’t care much for Charles, since he didn’t do anything to stop the death of Marianne and Euphy. Charles really doesn’t seem to care what his other children do, he seems more focused on Lelouch then on the others.
    Suzaku has offically become Britannia’s Lapdog, he’s no longer a Japanese if he would so willingly use such a method just to get what he wants out of a prisoner. Remember the adage, ‘you are what you eat’? Well in Suzaku’s case, you are what you pretend to be mf. Only a Britannia Knight would use that kind of method against a Japanese P.O.W >:( I hope you rot in all nine hells! It’ll serve you right if Kallen’s happy memory is something about her family before Britannia destroyed it!

    Lapdog aside, Lelouch seems to have his hands full for the next episode I can’t wait! (Death to SUZAKU THE BRITANNIA LAPDOG!)

39. Suma Sang July 14th, 2008 11:11 pm

    @ Crusader:

    I was trying to point out that though both instances (Area 11 and Geass cult) could be categorized under massacre, but one was strategic (Geass cult) whereas the other (Area 11) was just ruthless and did not need to happen. However, both Clovis AND Lelouch did commit a BAD thing because massacre is still massacre.

    Once Britannia is defeated, those countries under their control can regain their sovereignty and those countries allied with Lelouch can keep their sovereignty, which would’ve been taken away if Britannia turned out victorious. There may not be utopia where mankind is one “loving, huggie bunch”, but it will be a better world than the world that would have been ruled solely under the Britannian Empire. And it’s not that we love the rebel leader solely for being the rebel leader; he is preferred because the current leader has become one bad guy (hence, the reason for a rebel leader in the first place), and the rebel leader is the better alternative. Viewers are not blinded by Lelouch’s actions; we just prefer him to the emperor, who is the greater evil.

    With Saudi Arabia, whether it was by force or not, being on one side or the other is INEVITABLE. You can’t be caught up in the one nation that is appearing questionable right now (of whether or not Lelouch bullied it into joining his army) since all of his other allies joined willingly. Falcyon made a good point that there could be a misinterpretation of Lelouch’s intentions concerning this. Apart from the questionable circumstance, Saudi Arabia is only one factor of many in the whole scheme of things.

    And Lelouch has undergone a change of character (for the better) whether you want to see it or not. He’s grown; his circle of concern has moved from Nunally to the Student Council to the Black Knights, etc. You claim he’s ruthless and has become accustomed to killing off his friends and forgetting about them…Then why did he try to save Suzaku so many dang times in season 1 at the cost of revealing himself and jeopardizing the rebellion? Why did he give orders to the Black Knights to not harm the students at Ashford Academy, especially the Student Council, at the end of Season 1? Because he does FRICKIN care about his past and present friends. To me, Euphemia is the only person who he deeply cared about that he intentionally sacrificed (because he thought he had no choice). Other than that, he is not the heartless fiend you are making him out to be.

    Lastly, I do agree that Lelouch is in a sticky situation due to committing a moral “no-no”, and that loyalties on both sides have been tested, as Calawain pointed out. But Lelouch did have had a purpose for this slaughter: to eliminate a threat (and the source of sin, as he put it) as well as in honor of Shirley. He has not committed a slaughter like this (where unarmed people were the casualties) up until this point, which has left his men feeling their loyalty waver (aside from the incident where he abandoned them in season 1’s last episode). He has not been ruthless in this manner until now, and even so, it was still a strategic move and not meaningless. You are painting Lelouch in too harsh of a light; there IS a difference between father and son.

40. Crusader July 15th, 2008 12:27 am

    You forget that not all villains in life are one dimensional card board cut outs of evil. True Lulu may be compassionate to his Ashford buddies and Black Knight Cronies and severe to his enemies, but that does not change the fact that his actions are deemed necessary by him and him alone. If his men could be trusted then why lie?

    Lulu’s character reminds me of one Reinhard Heydrich, You see Heydrich was a handsome man, womanizer, and a loving father. He was loyal to his friends and severe to his enemies. Nevertheless these qualities do not excuse him for the crimes he committed. So while you give Lulu a free pass for wanton slaughter just remember that not every criminal is a pile of malice. Like Lulu he did foster a fanatical streak in his men such that when he was assassinated Lidice was wiped off the map and all males over 16 were shot. You say there is a difference between father and son, I agree in the end the body count for their pure and blue worlds will probably differ by 10 or so dead, but as you as a difference nonetheless.

41. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 3:50 am

    @Crusader

    They used the word suppressed and if the locals wanted to join in there would have been no need for Todou to go in to negotiate, he’s a fighter not a diplomat.

    Who’s to say who the Black Knights were suppressing? It could be Britannian/EU/Chinese Federation holdout-forces they were suppressing. There’s not enough information given in that small briefing to make a definitive determination on the status of Saudi Arabia. At best, all we can do is guess what their political status was prior to the Black Knights becoming involved.

    I have heard the cries for change before a paradise on earth where there will be no poor where every one is equal, and it has always ended tragically. Lulu’s rhetoric beautiful as it may be does not change the fact that his methods are brutal and will continue to be brutal because of necessity of building a utopia. So once big bad Britannia is gone I suppose mankind will all just start loving one another a big huggie bunch?

    Lelouch’s methods are brutal because his enemy is equally as brutal. Hence, the entire speech he made by becoming a greater evil. This has already been acknowledge. Lelouch’s goal is not a perfect utopia. His goal is a safer world for Nunnally and that begins (and ends) with the destruction of Britannia as he has said many times in Season One.

    Lulu kept Rolo alive despite the dangers Lulu was master of Rolo so it was his little weapon that killed Shirley for his sake. Don’t try to crucify the victim, we all know that it was Lulu’s insistence that Rolo be allowed to live that doomed Shirley.

    There was no way that Lelouch could’ve predicted that Rolo would’ve killed Shirley. Up until the arrival of Jeremiah Gottwield, Shirley led a safe and normal life. It was the fact that Orange-kun used his Geass Canceller on her which led her to becoming confused and conflicted and ultimately led to her demise. Rolo was kept alive because like Lelouch, Rolo has a Geass which is a useful ability. He also gained a lot of information about the Geass Cult through Rolo. It has been said since he acquired Rolo as a resource that he planned on disposing of him as soon as he was done with him.

    It was Shirley’s insistence on jumping into a battle zone that got her killed. You can’t walk into a mine field and then blame the mine for killing you. She knew what they dangers were. She was aware that he was Zero at that time and that he was in danger. She was fully aware of the associated risks of being around area. Despite the fact that Suzaku was already on the scene and police and firefighters had become involved, Shirley wanted to be Wonder Woman and help Lelouch despite the fact that she has no skills or combat ability. She made a conscious decision to AID A KNOWN TERRORIST and bore the consequence of that decision.

    If Toudo and Kaguya were competent they would not be in the position that they were in once Lulu left the field.

    Did you forget that Toudoh ranked highest on Lelouch’s chart? Or that Kaguya’s intelligence meter was maxed out? I think Lelouch’s own rankings indicate how competent he believes they are. How he utilizes his resources prior to “World Domination” is part of a strategy. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t think they’re not competent enough to take on Leadership roles, it just means he has more immediate uses for them that can further his goals a lot better.

    No one ever intends on becoming a dictator, it just happens they end up there. But in good time we shall see this new world that Lulu wants and we shall see if Nunnally will tolerate his presence after finding out all the things he has done for “her” sake. Lulu has Orange-kun he has infinite geass.

    As for infinite Geass, you’re assuming that Orange-kun will survive until the end of the conflict. Now that V.V. knows he’s defected, Orange-kun will be just as much a target of Britannia as Lelouch. I don’t think V.V. would’ve let Orange-kun get rebuilt and run wild on Area 11 without some form of failsafe. And remember, Lelouch’s new world begins with the destruction of Britannia. As for tolerating Lelouch’s presence, lol, he can always Geass her into forgetting about his crimes, like he did with Shirley in Season 1. Problem Solved.

    We all love the rebel leader, and often we forget that guys like Mugabe were once rebels. Don’t be so foolish to think that people can just walk away from power so easily, historically this has not been the case and the way things are going Lulu had a paradise and he lost it. But we shall see if this new age will be much different from the old.

    Lelouch is not Mugabe. Mugabe would’ve never run away from a battlefield to help his family. Nor would he consider disbanding his rebel forces and giving up because his family defected to the other side.

    You have to keep things in perspective. Code Geass, as a world, already has set rules on what the characters will and will not do. It has already become very clear that Lelouch is willing to do anything for Nunnally, including discarding the Black Knights and his designs on World Domination. This is what makes Lelouch fundamentally different from any dictator in history.

42. Gideon July 15th, 2008 3:52 am

    I fear this episode is a mere glimps of the stupidity to come. Politics-wise.

    The thing that bothered me the the most, apart from the wholesale slaughter, was the fact that apparently Lulu’s union of nations is getting along nicely. I assume the free world responded with a “Uniting against Brittania, why didn’t we think of that!” when they first heard of this masked man’s brilliant plan to get rid of that pesky conquering empire.

    I assume the Chinese nations (federation, empire, cult harbouring idiots, what ever they are supposed to be) had a troubled relation with the Euro Universe to begin with and as such those nations had no intention to unite against Brittania in the past, because they also distrusted each other. But here comes some masked loon and suddenly years of mistrust melt away as butter on a hot iron plate.

    I thought the Euro Universe was united to begin with. I thought they had been properly waging war against Brittania for years and years. True, they weren’t doing a very good job at it, but that doesn’t really matter. Here comes Zero, asking for the allegiance of the world for his (yet to be revealed, but assuredly) mad scheme, effective asking the rest of the world to forget the blood, sweat and tears they shed throughout the years in their struggle against their longtime foe and go along with whatever he proposes.

    The shows new motto: “If your achievements are not Japanese, they aren’t worth shit!”

    Why am I not suprised.

43. jack July 15th, 2008 4:21 am

    @liathgirl

    …

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

    (snort)

    Ok, that cheered me up. I’ll warn you, “Suzaku Kururugi is a Son of Japan”….

    (At this point could probably make a case for calling himself “The LAST Son of Japan”…)

44. Crusader July 15th, 2008 4:28 am

    @Halycon
    So let’s brush aside the Saudi’s and declare it a fully justified intervention because it was declared as such by Lulu. That’s the thing you take Lulu’s version at face value. So he wants to build a safer world for Nunnally I think she is pretty safe now given how fratricide is something only Lulu has done, we don’t even know who killed Marianne it might have be C2 all along. Moreover the longer the war continues the greater danger Nunnally will be in, this is after all a war and accidents will happen, with the Empire gone rank offers no protection and once the rebellion is victorious what is to prevent a Carthaginian peace? That is what Lulu wants with the complete dismantlement of the other side. She is still a royal and still culpable for having retainers like Suzaku…

    Sure Lulu’s power rankings woopee! Considering how fast the Black Rebellion collapsed I can’t say much for Todou the general given how top brass leaving a command post is militarily stupid these days but okay I guess Col. Todou could end up a Pinochet in a pinch. I have suspicions about putting a military officer in charge of a nation, I trust that you know as well as I do how such situations are rarely if ever for the best. Pleasant as having a loli-overlord may sound I think that was more of a joke than a serious endorsement of having children in charge of nations. It has not worked out so far…though feel free to cite a successful child Emperor/Empress.

    Fair enough blame Shirley if you must but in the end Lulu did get her involved since last season. That mudslide he called forth was the event that started it all. I Don’t recall Shirley starting that one.

    I do not think we can agree on the nature of Lulu if by your argument that his love for Nunnally is the thing that vindicates everything then so be it. I on the other hand have an aversion to idealists who are bent on achieving utopia by force, in my experience they embody the very worst kind of violence, because they feel justified in doing so. With professionals it is just necessary and business for them the goal becomes so inviolable that the cost is never too high.

    Also good luck trying to geass a blind girl…not sure how Lulu could pull it off but considering the amount of bullshit that has passed for tactics it wouldn’t surprise me if by series end Lulu can cure blindness, three kinds of leprosy, walk on water, and feed a starving nation with a loaf of bread.

    It is true no dictator ever proved that he was a sis-con. That is something unique about Lulu, the rest of them had more mundane fetishes.

45. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 6:49 am

    So let’s brush aside the Saudi’s and declare it a fully justified intervention because it was declared as such by Lulu. That’s the thing you take Lulu’s version at face value.

    LOL. I don’t take anything at face value. What I’m saying is, we don’t know the situation of Saudi Arabia prior to Lelouch’s intervention. Speculating on what it was is rather pointless. I take a guarded position of healthy skepticism.

    Here’s the info we have before us. Britannia, the EU and the Chinese Federation compose most of the world’s nations. There is very little information provided about any independent states, other than Japan which was subjugated and became a part of Britannia.

    So he wants to build a safer world for Nunnally I think she is pretty safe now given how fratricide is something only Lulu has done,

    Why did he commit fratricide? He killed Clovis because Clovis was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the ghettos. He killed Euphemia because Euphemia was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the stadium.

    Sounds to me if he didn’t commit fratricide there’d be tons more Japanese casualties.

    Moreover the longer the war continues the greater danger Nunnally will be in,

    You assume it’s going to be a long, bloody war of attrition. It won’t be. There are only 26 episodes of Geass. We’re already past the halfway point. The spoilers for the next episode indicate it won’t involve any conflict (at least on Earth) so that knocks down another Episode and we’re left at 10 episodes before the climax. Within these 10 episodes, they have major major plot holes, character arcs and character introductions (there are still at least 2 Knights of Rounds that haven’t made their debut within the series).

    Given the limited time frame with which to conclude the series and the amount of work left to be done, we can assume that his “war” will be over with the death of Charles vi Britannia and V.V.

    As for what can/will offer protection AFTER the war is over, let’s not forget that Nunnally is a blind, crippled girl who is trying to give the Japanese their sense of identity back. THIS, coupled with the fact that Kallen knows/likes her very well, is sure to almost guarantee that the Order of the Black Knights will fill in the vaccuum left behind by the Knights of the Round/Britannia.

    Considering how fast the Black Rebellion collapsed I can’t say much for Todou the general given how top brass leaving a command post is militarily stupid these days but okay I guess Col. Todou could end up a Pinochet in a pinch.

    Toudoh is a combat specialist, not a tactician. They were all looking to Lelouch to give them direction during the final battle of Season One. Let’s not forget ALSO that Toudoh is the ONLY MAN IN HISTORY to win a battle against Britiannia WITHOUT A SINGLE KnightMare frame. If that doesn’t give you an indication of his competency, IDK what will.

    I have suspicions about putting a military officer in charge of a nation, I trust that you know as well as I do how such situations are rarely if ever for the best.

    I, personally, don’t see Toudoh being a head of state but he does possess the leadership qualities and intelligence to become one. Being the “Miracle” Toudoh, it isn’t a far-fetched idea to imagine Toudoh having full support of the public based on his legendary hero status.

    Pleasant as having a loli-overlord may sound I think that was more of a joke than a serious endorsement of having children in charge of nations. It has not worked out so far…though feel free to cite a successful child Emperor/Empress.

    The Empress of China doesnt have the intelligence or resolution that Kaguya has. The two are very dissimilar. The only thing they share in common is age, not aptitude.

    Fair enough blame Shirley if you must but in the end Lulu did get her involved since last season. That mudslide he called forth was the event that started it all. I Don’t recall Shirley starting that one.

    Lelouch didn’t start the mudslide, Kallen did with her Gurren’s reaction weapon. Ultimately, the mudslide was to stop the Britannian forces at Narita. Lelouch had no way of knowing that Shirley’s father would end up at Narita or that the mudslide would kill him. Shirley’s father was a classic case of being at the wrong place, at the wrong time. As for involving Shirley, I believe Lelouch sought to rectify that error by Geassing her to forget about him. AND LET’S NOT FORGET, Shirley forgave Lelouch for her father’s death in the end!!! If anything, it was V.V. who involved Shirley in Season 2 by sending Jeremiah Gottweld to cancel the Geass’ in Ashford Academy (which included the Emperor’s Geass) and assassinate Lelouch (eventhough V.V. didn’t know that Lelouch became Zero again).

    I do not think we can agree on the nature of Lulu if by your argument that his love for Nunnally is the thing that vindicates everything then so be it.

    I don’t think Lelouch’s love for Nunnally vindicates his actions. What I’m saying is that the basis for his actions are Nunnally’s safety. If Nunnally’s safety is threatened he would abandon his quest for World Domination easily. That doesn’t vindicate his actions or methodology but that also doesn’t make him the mad power-hungry despot that you may imagine him to be.

    What separates him from other dictators is his willingness to throw away his position of authority for the love of another at the drop of a hat, as illustrated by leaving in the midst of a battle he could’ve won to rush to Nunnally’s rescue.

    He’s not your garden-variety megalomaniac by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that everything he does is for the love of his sister makes him a more sympathetic protagonist, as opposed to someone seeking power solely to satisfy their own ambition.

    I on the other hand have an aversion to idealists who are bent on achieving utopia by force, in my experience they embody the very worst kind of violence, because they feel justified in doing so. With professionals it is just necessary and business for them the goal becomes so inviolable that the cost is never too high.

    Human beings are by nature a very fractious species that will largely only cooperate when their self-interests converge (See: The US’ late involvement in WWII for an example).

    Also good luck trying to geass a blind girl

    Nunnally isn’t medically blind. The attack on the mansion didn’t injure her eyes. What keeps her from seeing is the psychological trauma of the attack. Her eyes work perfectly fine she’s just got a mental block that won’t allow her to open them and see. Other than the fact that she keeps her eyes closed, she’s perfectly susceptible to being Geass’d like everyone else.

46. Code Geass R2 Episode 14 | Atarashii Prelude July 15th, 2008 7:53 am

    [...] fray is Cornelia and her boomsticks, whom I officially just became a fanboy of. Just look at that. Nay Crusader, not even the great MacGyver could match her ingenuity and resourcefulness. Tony Stark, eat your [...]

47. Goob July 15th, 2008 9:00 am

    @Halcyon,

    A lot of things you say are interesting, but some of them are plain flat out wrong:

    Why did he commit fratricide? He killed Clovis because Clovis was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the ghettos. He killed Euphemia because Euphemia was murdering tons of innocent Japanese in the stadium.

    Lelouch did not kill Clovis because he was murdering the Japanese. At this point in the story, Lelouch did not care about the Japanese. If you rewatch Ep 3, during Lelouch’s confrontation with Clovis, at no point did he condemn Clovis for massacring the Japanese. He only brought up his family issues. He killed Clovis out of his own revenge against the royal family. Remember, he had been a Britannian citizen all this time, why would he suddenly start caring about the Japanese? He had only been in charge of a rebel group for a short time.

    Similarly, he did not kill Euphemia because he had to. Euphemia could have easily been rescued by Suzaku or someone else and taken away for safety, which would have ended any further bloodshed against the Japanese. He killed Euphemia because it would play into his plot of pinpointing the Britannia as blood thirsty bastards who would do anything to get rid of the Japanese. Perhaps people have a short memory but near the end of episode 21, Lelouch clearly displayed anger towards Euphemia for interfering with his plans, to the point where he was considering her an enemy. If anything, while geassing her might have been an accident, “dealing” with her was in Lelouch’s plans all along. He was NOT ready to accept a truce between Britannia and Japan, and the Euphemia incident was his way of stopping that truce.

    Sounds to me if he didn’t commit fratricide there’d be tons more Japanese casualties.

    If he hadn’t geassed Euphemia, there wouldn’t have been any further Japanese casualties, period. If he hadn’t gotten angry at Euphemia for her plan to reconcile the Japanese and Britannians, he wouldn’t have confronted her and ended up geassing her on accident. Seriously, do you people forget that Lelouch is in fact, responsible for all these deaths? Euphemia is completely innocent.

    As for what can/will offer protection AFTER the war is over, let’s not forget that Nunnally is a blind, crippled girl who is trying to give the Japanese their sense of identity back. THIS, coupled with the fact that Kallen knows/likes her very well, is sure to almost guarantee that the Order of the Black Knights will fill in the vaccuum left behind by the Knights of the Round/Britannia.

    Do you seriously believe that the Order of the Black Knights will vanquish the Britannian royalty in the end? I have a hard time believing that the show would introduce all of these sympathetic Britannian characters (Cornelia, Lloyd, Cecile, Gino, Anya, Viletta, the entire Ashford Academy, etc.) only to kill them off because they were on the bad guy’s side.

    Toudoh is a combat specialist, not a tactician. They were all looking to Lelouch to give them direction during the final battle of Season One. Let’s not forget ALSO that Toudoh is the ONLY MAN IN HISTORY to win a battle against Britiannia WITHOUT A SINGLE KnightMare frame. If that doesn’t give you an indication of his competency, IDK what will.

    So if Toudoh is that competent, he should also be one of the first to uncover Lelouch’s true nature. Imagine how Toudoh will react when he finds out it was Lelouch will killed off the JLF!

    Lelouch didn’t start the mudslide, Kallen did with her Gurren’s reaction weapon.

    But since it was part of Lelouch’s plans, the responsibility for the mudslide would fall to Lelouch. Hitler probably didn’t kill anyone but the deaths of millions are still on his hands because it was his orders.

    What separates him from other dictators is his willingness to throw away his position of authority for the love of another at the drop of a hat, as illustrated by leaving in the midst of a battle he could’ve won to rush to Nunnally’s rescue.

    This does make one more sympathetic to Lelouch’s cause. However it does give you some pause. To this day I still do not believe Lelouch really cares about creating a new country. His true goal has always been to avenge his mother’s death and his hatred only extends to the Britannian royal family, not to normal Britannians. He doesn’t care about the Japanese and is only using them as a chess piece. He has of course, over time gotten attached to his loyal men and friends, especially in season 2, but I don’t believe his goals have changed. He HAS demonstrated that if the conditions were correct, he would not mind Britannia still being in charge (see what happened when Nunally became governor).

    He’s not your garden-variety megalomaniac by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that everything he does is for the love of his sister makes him a more sympathetic protagonist, as opposed to someone seeking power solely to satisfy their own ambition.

    But he is still evil, you shouldn’t take that away from him. And quite frankly, I love the fact that he is evil. That makes him a much more interesting character than your typical cookiecutter hero whose every action is justified. And really, it annoys me more than anything else when Lelouch fanboys try to morally justify everything Lelouch does. Stop it.

48. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 9:29 am

    @Goob

    Lelouch did not kill Clovis because he was murdering the Japanese. At this point in the story, Lelouch did not care about the Japanese. If you rewatch Ep 3, during Lelouch’s confrontation with Clovis, at no point did he condemn Clovis for massacring the Japanese. He only brought up his family issues. He killed Clovis out of his own revenge against the royal family. Remember, he had been a Britannian citizen all this time, why would he suddenly start caring about the Japanese? He had only been in charge of a rebel group for a short time.

    To say that Lelouch has never cared about the Japanese plight prior to obtaining his Geass is patently false. Without his Geass, in the very first episode of Season Two, he is shown sympathizing with Kallen being treated like a dog because of her nationality. Now, it may not have been his primary motivation in murdering Clovis but it cannot be discounted as a factor either. The fact of the matter is, with his Geass, Lelouch could’ve murdered Clovis at any time, if all he was interested in was killing him for revenge. He chose to act only when Clovis started killing Japanese in the ghetto.

    Similarly, he did not kill Euphemia because he had to. Euphemia could have easily been rescued by Suzaku or someone else and taken away for safety, which would have ended any further bloodshed against the Japanese.

    This is just plain wrong. Suzaku tried to rescue Euphemia and Euphemia shot at him for being Japanese. None of the other Britannians were interested in “rescuing” Euphemia. They were more interested in following her orders to wipe out the Japanese. It was shown, afterwards, that Lelouch had genuinely loved Euphemia and had tried to stop her, pleading with her to end her massacre BEFORE he actually killed her.

    Point of fact is, the only person who could’ve stopped Euphemia in that situation was Lelouch. Euphemia was armed with an automatic weapon and was repeatedly firing on men, women and children indiscriminately. Lelouch tried talking her out of it before he pulled the trigger. Given the fact that she was under the spell of the Geass at the time, she would’ve continued killing all the Japanese until there were none left, and that includes Suzaku.

    He was NOT ready to accept a truce between Britannia and Japan, and the Euphemia incident was his way of stopping that truce.

    Also, patently false, as he had already agreed to a truce with Euphemia before his Geass went out of control.

    If he hadn’t geassed Euphemia, there wouldn’t have been any further Japanese casualties, period.

    His Geass went out of control. He didn’t Geass her purposefully.

    If he hadn’t gotten angry at Euphemia for her plan to reconcile the Japanese and Britannians, he wouldn’t have confronted her and ended up geassing her on accident.

    Are you serious? Euphemia wanted Lelouch to be part of the Special Administrative Zone. She had a suspicion that Lelouch was Zero all along since the hotel incident and even stated so during their meeting. She wanted to meet with Lelouch to discuss the possibility of coexistance. He didn’t meet her because he was angry at her. He met her to find out what her intentions were and to see if she was genuine in her desire for coexistence and equality between Japanese and Britannian people.

    Seriously, do you people forget that Lelouch is in fact, responsible for all these deaths? Euphemia is completely innocent.

    Lelouch is only -personally- responsible for 2 deaths. The rest were casualties of war. It’s not like he’s out there with a gun, deliberately committing murder.

    Do you seriously believe that the Order of the Black Knights will vanquish the Britannian royalty in the end? I have a hard time believing that the show would introduce all of these sympathetic Britannian characters (Cornelia, Lloyd, Cecile, Gino, Anya, Viletta, the entire Ashford Academy, etc.) only to kill them off because they were on the bad guy’s side.

    You mean the same way the show would introduce Euphemia and Shirley only to kill them off because they were on the Britannian side? LOLZ. If Sunrise has shown us anything it’s that any character can be killed, at any time, with the possible exception of the 3 main characters: Lelouch, Suzaku and C.C.

    90% of the characters on that show are expendable.

    So if Toudoh is that competent, he should also be one of the first to uncover Lelouch’s true nature. Imagine how Toudoh will react when he finds out it was Lelouch will killed off the JLF!

    Toudoh is also a combat veteran and understands the nature of war. I doubt Toudoh would be crying tears over the loss of the JLF. Ever since the hotel hijacking, involving innocent civilians, he didn’t seem too concerned with their fate.

    But since it was part of Lelouch’s plans, the responsibility for the mudslide would fall to Lelouch. Hitler probably didn’t kill anyone but the deaths of millions are still on his hands because it was his orders.

    The difference is, Hitler specifically selected civilians and rounded them up to be executed. Lelouch has not targetted anyone that didn’t have specific strategic military value.

    This is a War and for all intents and purposes, Lelouch has been following the basic principles of keeping civilian involvement to a minimum.

    But he is still evil, you shouldn’t take that away from him. And quite frankly, I love the fact that he is evil. That makes him a much more interesting character than your typical cookiecutter hero whose every action is justified. And really, it annoys me more than anything else when Lelouch fanboys try to morally justify everything Lelouch does. Stop it.

    Winston Churchill let thousands of people die at Coventry to protect a secret, does that make him evil?

    Lelouch, himself, is not a bad or evil person. He mourns for the deaths of others, tries to save his comrades and keep them from harm’s way. That being said, he will not hesitate to USE evil methods to achieve his goals. But it’s not like he’s a completely heartless badass who’s willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals.

    If that was the case, he would’ve used Nunnally as another chess piece to further his ambitions, which he has not.

    While Lelouch is the protagonist of the story, he’s not squeaky clean either. I personally enjoy his complex plans and methodolgy but to paint Lelouch as one absolute (evil) or another (victim) is just completely fallacious. He’s a multilayered anti-hero type of protagonist, which is what makes him interesting. Using evil to achieve a greater good!

49. Goob July 15th, 2008 9:29 am

    Another thing I want to add on the fratricide issue: Lelouch spent almost all of Season 1 hunting Cornelia. There is pretty much no doubt that he was going to kill her in the end but he did not get the opportunity to do so. And that is one death that cannot be justified whatsoever, especially after knowing that Cornelia is completely innocent of Marianne’s murder.

    To say that Lelouch has never cared about the Japanese plight prior to obtaining his Geass is patently false. Without his Geass, in the very first episode of Season Two, he is shown sympathizing with Kallen being treated like a dog because of her nationality.

    Right, and that is in Season Two. Obviously he changed over time, but at the beginning, he did not care that much.

    Now, it may not have been his primary motivation in murdering Clovis but it cannot be discounted as a factor either. The fact of the matter is, with his Geass, Lelouch could’ve murdered Clovis at any time, if all he was interested in was killing him for revenge. He chose to act only when Clovis started killing Japanese in the ghetto.

    I’d rather see it as that was the best opportunity he had to do it. You are just assuming that it factored into his execution of Clovis. And you certainly made it sound like it was his primary motivation in the previous post.

    This is just plain wrong. Suzaku tried to rescue Euphemia and Euphemia shot at him for being Japanese. None of the other Britannians were interested in “rescuing” Euphemia. They were more interested in following her orders to wipe out the Japanese. It was shown, afterwards, that Lelouch had genuinely loved Euphemia and had tried to stop her, pleading with her to end her massacre BEFORE he actually killed her.

    That still doesn’t justify him killing Euphemia. At some point Euphemia would have stopped (did you conveniently forget when she got out of her geass in the hospital bed?)

    Point of fact is, the only person who could’ve stopped Euphemia in that situation was Lelouch. Euphemia was armed with an automatic weapon and was repeatedly firing on men, women and children indiscriminately. Lelouch tried talking her out of it before he pulled the trigger. Given the fact that she was under the spell of the Geass at the time, she would’ve continued killing all the Japanese until there were none left, and that includes Suzaku.

    See above.

    Also, patently false, as he had already agreed to a truce with Euphemia before his Geass went out of control.

    That is what he said to her face. But as we all know, what Lelouch says and what he really thinks are not the same.

    Lelouch is only -personally- responsible for 2 deaths. The rest were casualties of war. It’s not like he’s out there with a gun, deliberately committing murder.

    Though not -personally- responsible, he is still responsible for what happened. To question that is pretty much blindly accepting every single action he commits.

    You mean the same way the show would introduce Euphemia and Shirley only to kill them off because they were on the Britannian side? LOLZ. If Sunrise has shown us anything it’s that any character can be killed, at any time, with the possible exception of the 3 main characters: Lelouch, Suzaku and C.C.

    Yes, but to be completely one-sided and wipe out another side would be downright insulting to fans (other than yourself apparently).

    Toudoh is also a combat veteran and understands the nature of war. I doubt Toudoh would be crying tears over the loss of the JLF. Ever since the hotel hijacking, involving innocent civilians, he didn’t seem too concerned with their fate.

    He wouldn’t cry, but he’d also realize what kind of a person Lelouch is. Also, the hotel hijacking was done by a rogue commander, not by the JLF leadership.

    The difference is, Hitler specifically selected civilians and rounded them up to be executed. Lelouch has not targetted anyone that didn’t have specific strategic military value.

    And you missed my point completely. You tried to shift the blame of the mudslide to Kallen, when in fact it would be something caused by Lelouch.

    Winston Churchill let thousands of people die at Coventry to protect a secret, does that make him evil?

    So now you’re comparing Lelouch to Winston Churchill? LOL.

    Lelouch, himself, is not a bad or evil person. He mourns for the deaths of others, tries to save his comrades and keep them from harm’s way. That being said, he will not hesitate to USE evil methods to achieve his goals. But it’s not like he’s a completely heartless badass who’s willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals.

    Actually, he IS willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals. The only reason he hasn’t used Nunnally yet is because she IS his goal. It would be counterproductive to use her for anything when he is doing all of this fighting purely for her sake.

    That he would use evil methods makes him an evil person. He is still obviously the protagonist, the “good guy”, the hero, but that does not change his basic nature. And like I said, it really takes away from Lelouch’s character when people like you try to morally justify every evil act he commits.

50. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 10:18 am

    Another thing I want to add on the fratricide issue: Lelouch spent almost all of Season 1 hunting Cornelia. There is pretty much no doubt that he was going to kill her in the end but he did not get the opportunity to do so. And that is one death that cannot be justified whatsoever, especially after knowing that Cornelia is completely innocent of Marianne’s murder.

    There’s no evidence to suggest that he would’ve killed Cornelia. If he wanted to do it, she was already down and out. He could’ve blasted her with his hadron cannons or shot. You can’t blame him for something he didn’t ACTUALLY do.

    Right, and that is in Season Two. Obviously he changed over time, but at the beginning, he did not care that much.

    How did he “change over time” if his entire memories were rewritten from Season 1 to Season 2? If anything, the only thing he “changed” from, was from being a Britannian Prince to a commoner. He still had the same personality as he did, before he became Zero. LOL.

    I’d rather see it as that was the best opportunity he had to do it. You are just assuming that it factored into his execution of Clovis. And you certainly made it sound like it was his primary motivation in the previous post.

    Best opportunity to? LOL. With the Geass at his command he could’ve killed Clovis any time he wanted and made it look like suicide. Or he could’ve Geass’d one of the people close to Clovis and had him taken out. I’m saying Lelouch had justification to kill Clove AND Euphemia, NOT that he was motivated out of pure benevolence but he certainly had a moral cause to kill them, regardless.

    That still doesn’t justify him killing Euphemia. At some point Euphemia would have stopped (did you conveniently forget when she got out of her geass in the hospital bed?)

    Eupehmia’s Geass stopped because she was dying LOL. It was STILL shown to be active when she was in her hospital bed. She was just physically unable to carry out the order she was given under the Geass.

    That is what he said to her face. But as we all know, what Lelouch says and what he really thinks are not the same.

    Why would he lie to her? At that point, she already knew he was Zero and what he had done and what he was fully capable of. LOL. Euphemia had honestly wanted Zero to participate in the Special Administrative Zone as an equal and Lelouch having a soft spot for Euphemia thought that this would be the BEST WAY to ensure Nunnally’s safety, which is why he agreed to it at the meeting.

    Though not -personally- responsible, he is still responsible for what happened. To question that is pretty much blindly accepting every single action he commits.

    In War, there are casualties!!

    Yes, but to be completely one-sided and wipe out another side would be downright insulting to fans (other than yourself apparently).

    It’s not one sided, half of Toudoh’s “Four Swords” were killed in Season Two along with some of his collaboraters who were executed for treason and before the story is over there’s bound to be more deaths on both sides. As both sides have ample amount of side characters that can be done without. I can think of Asahina, the entire bridge crew of the Black Knight’s flagship, that annoying little turd that keeps following Zero around trying to get a specific title (I forget his name) and Ougi.

    All irrelevant characters to the story who could be killed without impacting the BK too much.

    He wouldn’t cry, but he’d also realize what kind of a person Lelouch is. Also, the hotel hijacking was done by a rogue commander, not by the JLF leadership.

    I think what Toudoh realizes is that without Zero they can’t achieve their goals. As much as he may dislike his methods, he doesn’t question Zero’s results. That has already been explicitly established.

    And you missed my point completely. You tried to shift the blame of the mudslide to Kallen, when in fact it would be something caused by Lelouch.

    The point is Lelouch hasn’t intentionally killed or targetted any civilians, so your “Hitler” comparison is moot. Hitler’s entire power base was centered around oppressing and systematically punishing one group of people. Lelouch’s power base is centered around liberating the Japanese from Britannian oppression, which is why he’s viewed as a Savior by many of the Japanese.

    So now you’re comparing Lelouch to Winston Churchill? LOL.

    Well, you did compare Lelouch to Hitler… It’s only fair, after all.

    Actually, he IS willing to use anyone and anything to achieve his goals. The only reason he hasn’t used Nunnally yet is because she IS his goal. It would be counterproductive to use her for anything when he is doing all of this fighting purely for her sake.

    There are limits to what Lelouch is willing to do and what he’s willing to sacrifice to obtain his goals.

    That he would use evil methods makes him an evil person. He is still obviously the protagonist, the “good guy”, the hero, but that does not change his basic nature. And like I said, it really takes away from Lelouch’s character when people like you try to morally justify every evil act he commits.

    Look up the definition of anti-hero. Lelouch is neither hero nor villain, he falls somewhere inbetween. “Evil” characters don’t pursue altruistic goals, it runs antithetical to their character.

    I’m not “morally justifying” what Lelouch is doing. I’m correcting misperceptions people have about his character because Lelouch is being compared to “real world” examples, which is completely out of context of the world he exists in.

    ^_^

51. Suma Sang July 15th, 2008 11:44 am

    I couldn’t help but follow this argument. To sum up my opinion briefly, I think Goob and Crusader have been painting Lelouch in a harsher light than he actually deserves; you highlight the BAD actions he’s taken to an extent of villainy that makes him appear so one-sided. You ignore his complexities as both hero and villain when you do this. Halcyon has made a good point in saying that Lelouch is “a multilayered anti-hero type of protagonist”. Lastly, if you must compare Lelouch with others, stick to the context of the world he exists in (forget Hitler, or even Churchill); compared with his father, Lelouch’s ultimate enemy, who is the greater evil? I only keep bringing this up because I believe it is the most substantial comparison to be made. And for the record, LELOUCH IS THE LESSER EVIL.

52. Crusader July 15th, 2008 11:58 am

    @Halcyon
    Fair enough Lulu is different because he is sis-con, though you wish to avoid the real world as much as possible I wish to remind you that during their up and coming days, every commie did what he did because he loved his country and he wanted to build paradise in it. To think that such people were at the outset looking for power is patently false an reeks of utter ignorance. Such people had a cause, they just lost their way in the long run.

    So Shirley and her father were at the wrong place at the wrong time, if that is true then we may as well exonerate a man who sets up a bomb in a market place and maims and kills people he did not intend. Here I think we simply disagree on the level of responsibility.

    Sis-con is Lulu’s saving grace and as you believe that such things are justified for his world then so be it this is now a question of faith not logic.

    Todou is faux action man we have to take the writer’s words that he is a competent commander rather than see it all play out. By profession I am a soldier and that man cannot plan. He is no leader, he is a samurai with vassals not the equivalent of Patton. Given how Todou can’t win a battle by himself when it counts I think you overestimate the bastard. I’ll give you this he is a good pilot…Oh, okay so if Kaguya is by your standards mature I suppose making her ruler of Greater Japan is going to go well. Nevertheless I don’t trust young idealists, they have a tendency to be manipulated.

    If Lulu Geasses Nunnally it will be his rape the dog moment though I sense that many like you will still justify it one way or another.

    Again I remind you that every dictator did something good for someone at some point. Just because they have redeeming qualities does not then wash away the terrible things they did. Stalin was an evil man but he did make Russia and the USSR a superpower. Even now his legacy is not merely written off as being entirely evil. That’s the scary part while you see Lulu as some sort of sympathetic protagonist, I see a bastard whose deeds are terrible. I say he is little better than the man and the system that he is fighting. He is not a hero in my eye I will not treat him as such. Nevertheless feel free to worship your heroic protagonist. I will not and I guess that is something that your arguments for his innocence will never change. Sorry but nothing you say seems to make me see Lulu in a different light, it all seems like propaganda and half truths to me. I have spent my life fighting terrorists, and as Lulu is one I will probably never see him as a heroic protagonist. These are not mere misconceptions, but a difference in moral standards and ethics. Mine are no better or worse than yours so let’s just leave it at that.

    @Suma Sang
    Indeed Lulu is the lesser evil, but by ten or so dead corpses of women and children. But because Lulu is superior so will his body count be. I see little point in choosing the lesser evil if it means the death of millions for foolish pride. Then again I know that there are people for whom pride is something they cannot live without.

53. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 12:54 pm

    @Crusader

    Fair enough Lulu is different because he is sis-con, though you wish to avoid the real world as much as possible I wish to remind you that during their up and coming days,

    The reason the “real world” doesn’t apply to Geass is simply because the Geass world is SIMILAR but different from the real world. While we may all like to draw parallels to real-world historical examples, the writing of Geass simply doesn’t measure up. To compare it honestly with real-world dictators/revolutions is disingenuous because it ignores the history and the context of the Geass world by superimposing our own cultural perspective on an alien/alternative world.

    So Shirley and her father were at the wrong place at the wrong time, if that is true then we may as well exonerate a man who sets up a bomb in a market place and maims and kills people he did not intend. Here I think we simply disagree on the level of responsibility.

    Shirley wasn’t in the wrong place at the wrong time. She made a decision to walk into a battlefield. The basic human response to danger is to avoid it. Instead she walked away from her police escort to jump into a firefight. IDK how you can say Lelouch is wholly responsible for that.

    As for Shirley’s father, his death was an unintended casualty of military battle between two forces. Comparing a market place to a mountain where military forces were stationed is really, really unfair. There were no civilians ON the mountain and even Lelouch did not know the EXTENT of the effect Gurren’s reactor would have on the mountain.

    NOW, I’m not saying he doesn’t bear SOME, indirect, responsibility for Shirley’s father dying but to paint him as a murderer because he died as a consequence of armed combat between two forces at war is incorrect. No one holds soldiers accountable when their bullets and bombs unintentionally kill civilians during active combat, why would there be special rules for Lelouch if we’re following the same principals of war?

    Todou is faux action man we have to take the writer’s words that he is a competent commander rather than see it all play out. By profession I am a soldier and that man cannot plan. He is no leader, he is a samurai with vassals not the equivalent of Patton. Given how Todou can’t win a battle by himself when it counts I think you overestimate the bastard.

    Toudoh of Miracles!! Only man to defeat Britannia without a Knightmare!! I don’t think that’s something to you can discount easily. Being able to win a battle when you’re vastly outmanned and outgunned can’t be pure luck alone. He had to have SOME intelligence to pull that off. Give the man SOME credit!

    I’ll give you this he is a good pilot…Oh, okay so if Kaguya is by your standards mature I suppose making her ruler of Greater Japan is going to go well.

    I’m saying Kaguya is more mature and competent than most of the CURRENT cast of characters. Even by Lelouch’s own standards, she ranks very high on the intellect scale and the only people Lelouch really respects intellectually are Xing Ke, Charles and Schneizel. Having Lelouch’s seal of approval has to count for something.

    Nevertheless I don’t trust young idealists, they have a tendency to be manipulated.

    Fair Enough!

    If Lulu Geasses Nunnally it will be his rape the dog moment though I sense that many like you will still justify it one way or another.

    I don’t think Lelouch could bring himself to Geass her, unless he honestly thought it was the only way to bring her happiness (as he did with Shirley) or save her life (as he did with Suzaku). I’m just saying that because Nunnally is “blind” doesn’t mean she CAN’T be Geassed, if it came to that.

    Again I remind you that every dictator did something good for someone at some point. Just because they have redeeming qualities does not then wash away the terrible things they did. Stalin was an evil man but he did make Russia and the USSR a superpower. Even now his legacy is not merely written off as being entirely evil. That’s the scary part while you see Lulu as some sort of sympathetic protagonist, I see a bastard whose deeds are terrible.

    Lelouch is THE protagonist because that’s how the story/show is written. It’s centered around his struggle against Britannia, not because we want to see him as a protagonist, that’s just how it is. Now, in Season One, one could make the argument that Suzaku was ALSO a protagonist but that’s gone down the shitter this season and he’s clearly AN antagonist to Lelouch’s protagonist.

    I say he is little better than the man and the system that he is fighting. He is not a hero in my eye I will not treat him as such. Nevertheless feel free to worship your heroic protagonist.

    I never once said he was a hero! He is actually an ANTI-hero. Someone who uses questionable methods to achieve an altruistic goal, similar to Death Note’s protagonist who murders criminals to achieve a good end.

    I will not and I guess that is something that your arguments for his innocence will never change. Sorry but nothing you say seems to make me see Lulu in a different light, it all seems like propaganda and half truths to me.

    I’m not arguing for Lelouch’s innocence. I’m saying it’s not as black and white as people want to see it. It’s a lot more complex than that. He’s a multi-dimensional character. The way Geass is written, no one is truly innocent (with the exception of Nunnally and possibly Lloyd). Every character has blood on their hands, yet Lelouch is singled out and villified for it.

    I have spent my life fighting terrorists, and as Lulu is one I will probably never see him as a heroic protagonist. These are not mere misconceptions, but a difference in moral standards and ethics. Mine are no better or worse than yours so let’s just leave it at that.

    One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Let’s not forget that Britannia forcibly conquered Japan for their resources (Sakuradite) and stripped them of their rights and national identity and forced their citizens, who were non-Britannian into ghettos. Now if anything, that sounds eerily similar to what the Nazis did to the Polish when they invaded back in ‘38. One of Lelouch’s goals is restoring what was once taken from the Japanese by a foreign occupant. Remember, Lelouch is fighting AGAINST Britannia and FOR the Japanese. Ultimately, it’s the Japanese who were victimized by Britannian military aggression.

    Lelouch, for his part, has not injured a single Japanese citizen during his struggle. Most, if not all, of his casualties have been Britannian. Lelouch is directly standing up and fighting for the downtrodden (even if it’s just to further his own goals, he’s still helping the Japanese gain their independence).

    I think people often get repulsed by the magnitude of Lelouch’s immoral actions that they forget the Japanese were worse off before the arrival of Zero. There have been numerous small segments (the Japanese hotdog vendor in Season One, for example) that illustrate how awful the Japanese have it under Britannian rule.

    In Summation, I don’t believe Lelouch is a hero. His action illustrate otherwise, but nor is he either. A villain doesn’t risk their life to save others, like Lelouch has done (even recently). I think Lelouch is a complex character that needs to be observed through the context of the world that he was created and lives in. Anything else, would just be subjective bias.

    @Suma Sang

    I’m glad someone understands me!

    ^_^

54. Suma Sang July 15th, 2008 2:25 pm

    @ Crusader:

    You are an extremist.

    @ Halcyon:

    Ditto.

55. Gideon July 15th, 2008 4:48 pm

    -Lulu as an anti-hero-

    An interesting point of view. I rather doubt it is correct though.

    Lulu has of yet to show any traditional heroic traits (self-sacrifice, courage beyond the call of duty, etc.). Classifying him as your run of the mill hero is clearly not an option, but even calling him an anti-hero would be to generous in my opinion. I am aware that I am venturing in the realm of opinions here and as such can’t be proven factually correct. Or wrong, which is a bit more convenient seeing as there are some passionate oppinioned people roaming this blog.

    I believe that if you boil Lelouch’s character down to its core, you will find that he is motivate by two things: 1. Preventing further emotional trauma to himself. 2. Taking revenge on those who have cause(d) him emotional trauma. Every major decision he has made is a result of one of these two motivations. Becoming Zero -> Finding out who killed his mother and make said person pay dearly. Abandoning the Black Rebellion -> Keeping Nunally safe for his own sake so that she can’t be used to hurt him. The only true development in Lulu’s character seems to be the awareness that he can’t be hurt as easily in the past (He has stronger friends and Nunally is safe and comfortable in her new position as governor of Area 11) and that he has more personal and political manoeuvring space to pursue motivation 2.

    Keeping this in mind, he really isn’t any kind of hero (not even an anti-hero). His actions are purely self-serving and rather one-dimensionally.

    If someone is looking for a hero though, I recommened Cornelia. Now there is someone to root for. First, her quest is to clear his dead sister’s name. Secondly, she fought V.V. while greatly exposing herself (A veteran like herself probably knew the risks involved with using a jerry-rigged weapons-platform, in the open, below, one of the most deadly KMF in existence). Thirdly, she saved the day in the latest episode, eventhough she probably isn’t really fond of the black knights and their leader. My hero

56. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 5:49 pm

    @Gideon

    Lulu has of yet to show any traditional heroic traits (self-sacrifice, courage beyond the call of duty, etc.).

    Diving off a rooftop to save someone who has no strategic value is not self-sacrificing? LOLWUT

    Are you sure you’ve been watching all of the episodes up til now?

    I believe that if you boil Lelouch’s character down to its core, you will find that he is motivate by two things: 1. Preventing further emotional trauma to himself.

    This has already been disproven during Season One. Once when he found out he was indirectly responsible for the death of Shirley’s father and again when he personally had to kill Euphemia.

    Both events shook Lelouch to the core. The first one made him reconsider whether or not he wanted to continue on as Zero.

    The only true development in Lulu’s character seems to be the awareness that he can’t be hurt as easily in the past (He has stronger friends and Nunally is safe and comfortable in her new position as governor of Area 11) and that he has more personal and political manoeuvring space to pursue motivation 2.

    If that was true, he wouldn’t have turned to using Refrain when he discovered Nunnally’s new position as the Governor-General of Area 11.

    It was Kallen’s intervention which prevented Lelouch from turning into a drug addict. Lelouch also seems to have gone ape-shit crazy over the death of Shirley, wiping out the entire Geass Cult in her honor. If anything, Lelouch is more vulnerable emotionally in Season Two than he was in Season One. Half of his decisions (including the decision to turn around and fight the Chinese Federation’s forces in episode 10) are not based on logical, military tactics but irrational emotional reactions to losing people he feels are important in his life (Nunnally, Kallen, Shirley, etc). In Season One, all he cared about was Nunnally. Season Two has showed dramatic improvement as Lelouch expands the list of people he shows concern for to include Kallen, C.C., Shirley and now Orange-kun as Orange-kun has a direct connection to his mother.

    Keeping this in mind, he really isn’t any kind of hero (not even an anti-hero). His actions are purely self-serving and rather one-dimensionally.

    His goal is the overthrow of a militaristic Social Darwinist empire. Regardless of what actions he chooses to undertake or what his motivations are, as long as his GOAL is altruistic he falls under the definition of anti-hero.

    If someone is looking for a hero though, I recommend Cornelia. Now there is someone to root for. First, her quest is to clear his dead sister’s name. Secondly, she fought V.V. while greatly exposing herself (A veteran like herself probably knew the risks involved with using a jerry-rigged weapons-platform, in the open, below, one of the most deadly KMF in existence). Thirdly, she saved the day in the latest episode, eventhough she probably isn’t really fond of the black knights and their leader. My hero

    LOL Saved the day? More like she completely screwed up Lelouch’s plan to blow up Rolo ALONG WITH the Seigfreid, thus ruining Lelouch’s chance to avenge Shirley’s murder.

    I’ll concede the first point. Placing herself in danger is nothing noteworthy, she’s a military commander of Britannia, it’s part of the job. It’s something she’s used to. She’s not going above and beyond the call of duty. She’s done it countless times before. She also has vast experience piloting KnightMare frames and has probably had combat extensive training. As “dangerous” as the situation may have been (she wasn’t even targeted by the Seigfreid until after she fired which, again, ruined Lelouch’s opportunity to blow up Rolo AND the Seigfreid) she’s been trained to deal with the danger.

    Cornelia doesn’t really fit the mold of a hero. She’s more of a vigilante. She operates outside the bounds of the law and uses her own methodology to achieve her objectives. Let’s not forget she threw a knife at a child’s head (not knowing he was immortal at the time). This shows that she’s willing to kill children too!

    I guess murder runs in the family. First Charles, then Clovis, then Lelouch, then Euphemia and now Cornelia!!

    The only one who really fit the role of traditional hero was Suzaku. He had the moral high-ground until Euphemia was killed and he turned to the darkside becoming Darth Suzaku, willing to sacrifice schoolmates (Kallen), manipulate crippled Nunnally and betray friends (Lelouch) to achieve his objective of ruling Japan.

57. Crusader July 15th, 2008 7:32 pm

    @Halcyon
    We are held accountable for friendly fire and collateral damage, more often or not the man in charge gets sacked or other wise get his career ruined over any such incident. Lulu was fighting next to a settlement there would have been consequences yet it seems that he made no effort to do anything about it. He even let a bunch of JLF guys go down with it. Secondly Lulu did off Japanese indirectly with Euphemia and intentionally when he sank that freighter and the JLF with it. The JLF were Japanese too.

    I gave Todou credit for being a good pilot, he has not however proven beyond some obscure battle constantly referenced but never shown, that he is all that he is cracked up to be. If he gives me a victory won but the kin of his teeth then I can say without out a doubt the man is capable. However this miracle seems to have been a fluke. Clearly no miracle occurred when Lulu left back in season 1. I want proof of accomplishment not some word of some idiot writer who has consistently failed to show Todou’s skills as a commander. That’s the point of contention I want to see Todou give a miracle, while you are willing to accept that title despite his accomplishments being anything but miraculous, I want to see him command flawlessly. Granted being the only alleged heterosexual I guess he is worthy of some recognition.

    I am repulsed by his idiot insistence that utopia can be built upon the blood of millions. He killed of the JLF he’s not as you say a hero so why bother trying to justify every morally questionable thing he does? Look I am not going to argue with you over the merits of terrorism if you want to support them that is your business I just make it my life’s work to burn them out of their rat holes and gut them, I may sympathize with their cause, but their methods are lacking that is why I kill them. Beyond that I really don’t care about the moral implications of fighting such people they have already chosen to kill and die for their cause I merely oblige them with the death they so foolishly seek.

    You call Lulu complex but I think he’s just a more capable bullshitter and prone to emo fits of rage.

    @Suma Sang
    So you think I give a damn? I just disagree with the lesser evil justification that you use to excuse Lulu’s actions.

58. Halcyon July 15th, 2008 8:31 pm

    @Crusader

    We are held accountable for friendly fire and collateral damage, more often or not the man in charge gets sacked or other wise get his career ruined over any such incident.

    I’ve never heard of any consequences being reported for Friendly Fire or Collateral Damage. I’m not involved with the military so I’ll have to defer that point to you. But it doesn’t look like they face criminal charges for ‘accidental killing’ during combat.

    Lulu was fighting next to a settlement there would have been consequences yet it seems that he made no effort to do anything about it. He even let a bunch of JLF guys go down with it. Secondly Lulu did off Japanese indirectly with Euphemia an intentionally when he sank that freighter and the JLF with it. The JLF were Japanese too.

    The JLF were, in fact, terrorists who took a hotel room of civilians hostage and then began systematically killing them individually to have their demands met. You can’t compare that with the countless Innocent Japanese lives Lelouch has saved directly and indirectly through his actions as Zero (the Shinjuku Ghetto in Season One, Episode 3 is a prime example). If not for Zero’s intervention, Shirley, Nina, Milly AND Euphemia would’ve eventually been killed off along with a lot of innocent bystanders.

    I gave Todou credit for being a good pilot, he has not however proven beyond some obscure battle constantly referenced but never shown, that he is all that he is cracked up to be. If he gives me a victory won but the kin of his teeth then I can say without out a doubt the man is capable. However this miracle seems to have been a fluke. Clearly no miracle occurred when Lulu left back in season 1. I want proof of accomplishment not some word of some idiot writer who has consistently failed to show Todou’s skills as a commander. That’s the point of contention I want to see Todou give a miracle, while you are willing to accept that title while his accomplishments are anything but miraculous. Granted being the only alleged heterosexual I guess he is worthy of some recognition.

    We have no choice but to accept what is presented. That’s what the writers are giving us as Toudoh’s backstory. Having said that, Code Geass is about Lelouch not Toudoh. There’s no way they’re going to let his subordinate upstage him in his own show. lololol.

    I am repulsed by his idiot insistence that utopia can be built upon the blood of millions.

    He’s not trying to build a utopia. He’s just trying to remove the strangehold of power that Britannia has on the world. He wants to make it more equitable for the other nations of the world. In effect, Britannia has amassed a consolidation of power and Lelouch is looking to breakup their monopoly. With the EU half-conquered by Schneizel and the Chinese Federation ALMOST bought out through the pseudo-marriage to Odysseus, Britannia would’ve dominated most of the globe.

    Lelouch is trying to topple the Britannian attempt at world domination.

    He killed of the JLF he’s not as you say a hero so why bother trying to justify every morally questionable thing he does?

    See above! The JLF were killing civvies and directly threatening his friends at Ashford Academy. What would you do if someone held your mates at gun point?

    Look I am not going to argue with you over the merits of terrorism if you want to support them that is your business I just make it my life’s work to burn them out of their rat holes and gut them, I may sympathize with their cause, but their methods are lacking that is why I kill them.

    LOL. I don’t support terrorists, terrorism or terrorist agendas. What my contention is that Lelouch and the Black Knights are labeled as terrorists not by the Japanese but by a foreign occupant that has conquered a nation and deprived its peoples of its basic rights to freedom.

    The real question you have to ask yourself is: Is Japan better off with Zero or without?

    Without Zero:
    CC would still be Clovis’ lab rat.
    Kallen would’ve probably died with her brother in that trailer truck.
    Thousands of innocent Japanese would’ve been killed by Clovis to protect his secret research.
    Britannia would have no opposition to its world conquest agenda.
    Euphemia, Milly, Shirley, Nina and other Britannians would’ve been killed off by the JLF.

    And the Japanese would still be enslaved and subjugated in their own country.

    At least with Lelouch, regardless of his methodology, the Japanese have a fighting chance to regain their independence.

    Let me express again, that Lelouch has not attacked or targeted any civilians during any of his operations. Have there been civilians casualties? Yes. But is he out setting off bombs in shopping malls? Hijacking planes? Taking hostages? No.

    If you can find an instance of Lelouch engaging in terrorist behavior, I’ll concede the point but there is no evidence to support Lelouch being labeled as a terrorist other than Britannian propaganda.

    You call Lulu complex but I think he’s just a more capable bullshitter and prone to emo fits of rage.

    I call him “complex” because he’s not the typical shonen mecha hero inspired by truth, friendship and rainbows and out to fight the big bad evil villain without getting his hands dirty. That’s what I like about Code Geass. Lelouch is just as ready to get down and dirty to get the job done. But by that same token, as villainous as his actions are, he’s shown to be different from Charles who uses his own family as pawns. Lelouch believes that Japanese and Britannian should be treated the same, regardless of birthright. Charles believes that the weak exist to serve the strong and only the strong should have any rights and privileges as evidenced by his speech in one of the episodes.

    There’s a fundamental difference which separates Charles (who wants to preserve a master-slave relationship) and Lelouch (who wants to enact equal rights) that prevents Lelouch from becoming completely evil.

    Lelouch has some noble goals: Protect Nunnally, Make the World Safer, Make everything more fair and equal.

    He just goes about using vicious methods to achieve those goals. Given the fact that his father is even more vicious and cold-hearted than he is, it’s no surprise he’d have that attitude. You have to fight fire with fire, as they say. Charles isn’t going to just up and give up the throne and let Japan go just because you ask him nicely. The only thing the Emperor acknowledges is strength. Lelouch has to wrest control of Japan back from Britannia with his bare hands and that’s not a job for the faint-hearted, like Suzaku.

    The key to Lelouch and to Geass is context. Yes, Lelouch is bad, but just how bad is he compared to Charles? Compared to the threat of Britannian World Domination? Not very, imo. It’s definitely an improvement from the current atmosphere of repression and prejudice that Charles’ World Order represents.

59. Crusader July 15th, 2008 9:09 pm

    @Halcyon
    Lulu took Tianzi hostage, and I distinctly remember him pointing a gun at her head. If that is not a terrorist act I don’t know what is. He even went so far to as to kidnap her for his own purposes, she was not even in imminent danger as Li was there. Lulu did let her go but only after he got what he wanted. What would have been the result if Tianzi did not wish to cooperate, or if Li had said no? The guys on the freighter had nothing to do with the hostage taking, and up until that point they had been conducting a more conventional fight with their stupid little fortress of doom in the mountains with turrets. It was only a small faction that took hostages, not even Todou and his old boss were in approval of it. Todou was once JLF too.

    This has gone far enough into morality and philosophy as I have said before Lulu is your anti-hero, but all I see is a scum bag. As far as I can tell Lulu is just drawing from the same emotional arguments put forth by communists to end Western domination the rhetoric is the same equality for all, a better world, we being oppressed, so on and so forth. A world where every one is equal is a utopia it has never come into existence, it is perfect in that sense. Sure he’s saving a few, but those he saves then go on to kill others, and enforce their dominion over other peoples. They were still shooting women and children with out provocation though you probably think that it was necessary and therefore not a crime. I guess they are better off now because instead of being victims of war they are prosecutors of war. Instead of just receiving death they now dole it out to others.

    I agree that he is multifaceted but nonetheless for me his virtues are outweighed by his sins. Just because Charles is a douche bag does not mean that Lulu can’t be one as well.

    His goals are noble yes but given the amount of death needed to get there is the cost in the end going to be worth it. I don’t think it is but you do. Suffice to say we will never agree. You are an optimist, I am a cynic. That’s all there is to it.

60. Suma Sang July 16th, 2008 12:21 am

    @ Crusader: (my last thoughts)

    Truth be told, I’m always glad to hear someone else’s opinions, no matter what they believe in, and that includes yours, now matter how divergent our POVs are.

    That said, when I say “extremist”, it’s because the arguments you have put forward so far have appeared too one-sided; although you’ve made some valid points about Lelouch and the manner in which he pursues his goals, you still refuse to acknowledge that there IS a fundamental difference between Lelouch and his father. Though they both possess a similar aptitude and cunning, their personal morals and values obviously differ and so does the degree of evil they both exercise and characteristically possess. But you only highlight the similarities, dismissing the rest of what constitutes Lelouch’s multi-dimensional character.

    Lelouch has both the qualities of “hero” (e.g. Zero, a rebel leader symbolizing freedom and justice from Britannia’s oppression) AND “villain” (e.g. the methods he chooses to use to defeat Britannia, which does inevitably involve bloodshed) because that’s what the writers decided; you, however, don’t take this into account, arguing that because Lelouch had committed bloodshed (Britannian bloodshed, mainly) AT ALL, that is enough to pose him as this completely “black and white” black one-sided villainous figure, disregarding the context this is happening in, which is a dang WAR.

    You appear knowledgeable in war and politics, so I’m sure you know how ugly and messy they both are, so why are you acting like unless Lelouch doesn’t kill ANYBODY then he’s automatically evil incarnate? In war, someone’s blood will be spilled because that is the ugly truth about war. At least with Lelouch and the path he’s taken so far, it’s been strategy from the start and not hapless random bouts of pure slaughter and mayhem, as Halcyon has already detailed in previous posts. I’m not justifying what he’s done; I’m saying that you’re dismissing the OTHER factors that surround what he’s done. Killing is wrong no matter what the context, but come on, since this is a WAR, there will inevitably be deaths.

    And bringing it back into context of the CG realm, Britannia IS trying to take over the world; they are bent on social Darwinism, that the strong conquer the weak, and they conquer others through FORCE and might and strength and etc. Do you really expect Lelouch not to fight fire with fire when he’s dealing with this kind of enemy? Do you really think there are INNOCENT methods to go about doing this? Be realistic.

    After everything that’s been presented so far: your POV, my POV, Halcyon’s POV…if you are still unable to see Lelouch as little more than a dictator or a terrorist, my fellow Code Geass R2 watcher, blogger, and fan, this kind of thinking borders more on ‘naivety’ than cynicism.

    @ Halcyon:

    “The key to Lelouch and to Geass is context. Yes, Lelouch is bad, but just how bad is he compared to Charles? Compared to the threat of Britannian World Domination? Not very, imo. It’s definitely an improvement from the current atmosphere of repression and prejudice that Charles’ World Order represents.”

    What I’ve been pointing out all along. Thank you, Halcyon.

    And to set the record straight, I don’t think you’re an ‘optimist’; I think you just ‘make sense’.

61. Crusader July 16th, 2008 1:22 am

    @Suma Sang
    Look he’s your freedom fighter, but my terrorist. There was once a man who fought against Imperialists and Western Domination of his state, he tried to make a world where all were equal, and that no man was richer than his neighbor. He wanted to build a nation where there was no property where every one could be happy free from want of food, clothing, and money at a time when a lot of people were poor and starving. It was a noble cause, a just cause. However along the way millions died because he had miscalculated when he tried to walk away he felt that his work was being undone, and that the people were backsliding, so for their own good he got rid of a few thousand of them to start anew. Sadly there were more people who wanted to go back to how things were, so he got rid of more people, and the cycle continued. The thing you have to remember about such noble causes is that it can easily become justification for more terrible acts. I know the price of such idealism given form, don’t think that I am naive for distrusting the “ends justify the means” mentality. If any thing if you believe that there can be a cause worth such bloodshed then we can never agree.

    Again he’s a hero in your eyes not mine. That is not me being naive that is me not trusting the honeyed words of a demagogue. At the end of the day Lulu is a consummate politician like every other politician he is a lair he talks a good talk, but his methods make me sick. Sorry that my sense of right and wrong are different from yours, but if you want me to just focus on Lulu’s heroics you are out of luck. Lulu reminds me of every other revolutionary, just with a tinge of sis-con. Lulu will never be a hero even you concede that. Lulu is engaging in some dirty business in war the only heroes are the ones who are dead, Lulu is alive he is no hero.

    If Lulu wanted to keep the body count low he could have shut his fucking gob and just cheated his way to the throne. There is no justice in war. There is nothing good about war, not even its end. Yes his cause is just, he has done some good he has done a lot of bad. You see it all hinges on whether or not you can overlook enough of the bad to see the good. For me Lulu has done more bad than good to qualify for “Hero of Justice.” Britannia is evil, but they pure evil they don’t pretend to even care. Lulu on the other hand mixes his evil with a little bit of good this to me is rather hypocritical severe to some kind to others how is this equal? Why even rank them? Lying to his men, letting Euphie bear all the stigma of his little accident, leaving Kallen to rot in the hands of Suzaku, not offing Rolo when he had the chance, killing off the JLF and pretending that they an heroed themselves. No apologies will make up for what he did.

    Look I know that he’s trying to do the right thing, but he is failing at it from my point of view. He still did kill women and children there, just because it was deemed necessary does not absolve him of shooting unarmed people. Given that C2 still had some support and Rolo was still one Rolo-nii, coupled with Orange-kun’s Geass canceler a siege with no quarter was not the only option. He chose revenge on a group of people who were only tangentially involved. I don’t like the idea of becoming little better than your enemies for the sake of winning. Just because Japan was killing POWs and murdering and raping civilians doesn’t mean that the US should have in turn adopted such policies at Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.

    Realistically I know the things that need to be done, slaughtering unarmed people before they have a chance to surrender is not one that I would deem necessary or ever justified. Lulu did not try and sort out who was who he just lied so that they would all die. In 1941 Japan and Germany were winning the war, but does that mean that the Allies should have started rounding up undesirables and gassing them en masse? Should the Allies have adopted the burn all, kill all, loot all Policy of Japan? It’s easy to say you will fight fire with fire, but I doubt you know the full implication of such vague statements.

    I think it is naive to call for more blood more death as a means of winning, and that the ends always justify the means. Tell me could you bring yourself to kill a child? Could you shoot an old man? Could you kill an enemy who has surrendered to you? Could you shoot a woman and her child? If your leader told you that it was necessary to do it for the sake of Freedom could you pull that trigger? Even if the enemy is hated, it still takes a lot of malice to pull that trigger. That or a lot of booze.

    It’s easy to say these things because Britannia is evil, but so was the Japanese Empire and Nazi Germany. I don’t think that you have to become evil to defeat evil. If not being able to pull the trigger on unarmed people make me naive then so be it. I’d rather be a fool than a criminal. For Lulu war is a continuation of politics as a means to an end, I think that war is not a continuation of policy it is a failure of policy.

    I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of the cries for war — its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers … it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated … that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.

62. Gideon July 16th, 2008 3:57 am

    @Halcyon

    I forgot about the refrain (and a bunch more, I really can’t be bothered to remember everything I have seen months ago.), but that is clearly a sign that he’ll do anything to avoid emotional trauma. Yes?

    As for diving after some one on a rooftop. I argue that he did that for his own sake and not for Shirly’s. That is why instead of blaming himself for geassing Shirly in the first place and causing all of this, he goes after the distant cult . He never blames himself, but always the ones responsible for his traumas and faults.

    Also Lulu might rather die than go through another one of his trauma’s if it were up to him. That makes him a coward instead of a hero. Not to sure about this, but I think one could succesfully argue for it.

    As for his ultimate goal (getting rid of the evil empire): A mere side-effect of his own personal quest for vengeance.

    And now my Cornelia-defence:
    -Oh no, she stopped Lulu from taking justice into his own hands by killing Rolo. The villain. How could she do that! I mean, what is she some kind of person who believes in justice or something. Gasp! (she wasn’t aware of it though, but even if she was, she is hardly a villain because of it. Quite the opposite.)

    -She is a vigilante? Operating outside the law, using her own methods. As opposed to Zero, who does what exactly? Really now.

    Good bet, Cornelia exactly knew what kind of operation was going on there (having found the place to begin with, without the help of Rolo and Jeremiah who had actually been there before). She entered through the vents, which means she was trying to be sneaky, because she knew that if she someone saw her, she would have to kill that person. She doesn’t come storming in with a KMF. No, she places herself in a vulnerable position (sneaky stealthy like) in an attempt not to have to kill everyone.

    -She is used to placing herself in danger? It is her job? So someone isn’t a hero if he is couragous/heroic all the time? “Ah spiderman/batman/superman isn’t a hero, he does that hero-shit all the time.”

    You have some valid point in the Lulu-hero debate, but with regard to Cornelia not being a hero, you are just being silly.

63. Halcyon July 16th, 2008 4:20 am

    @Crusader

    Lulu took Tianzi hostage, and I distinctly remember him pointing a gun at her head. If that is not a terrorist act I don’t know what is. He even went so far to as to kidnap her for his own purposes, she was not even in imminent danger as Li was there.

    Again, we have to put that event in its proper context. Tianzi was being sold off by the Eunuchs to Britannia. He merely did the same thing Xing Ke was attempting to do. Stop the wedding and prevent Britannia from expanding their grasp on power.

    Was Tianzi in any danger while she was with Lelouch? Absolutely not. Did he return her to Xing Ke once the threat of the Eunuch was eliminated? Yes.

    Was it a criminal act? Absolutely yes, but I don’t think it falls within the bounds of “terrorism”. I think Lelouch could’ve used Tianzi as a pawn to further his schemes but opted to let her decide her OWN future. I don’t know many terrorists that would give their victims that same freedom of choice.

    Lulu did let her go but only after he got what he wanted. What would have been the result if Tianzi did not wish to cooperate, or if Li had said no?

    How did she cooperate? She never agreed to any of his political proposals. In the end, he let her go to decide her own fate, thanks to Shirley’s advice. It was clear the only reason he took her was to prevent the Eunuchs from forming an alliance with Britannia. He essentially rescued her from a marriage she didn’t want.

    Could Xing Ke have pulled it off by himself without Lelouch’s interference? We’ll never know. He certainly did have the infrastructure set up to execute his coup d’etat but then again, the show isn’t about Xing Ke’s struggle against the Chinese Federation. It’s about Lelouch’s struggle against Britannia. lol

    The guys on the freighter had nothing to do with the hostage taking, and up until that point they had been conducting a more conventional fight with their stupid little fortress of doom in the mountains with turrets. It was only a small faction that took hostages, not even Todou and his old boss were in approval of it. Todou was once JLF too.

    I’ll give you this point. There’s no evidence to suggest the remaining JLF were involved in the hostage taking but let me ask you this:

    If you see an identified terrorist GROUP, do you stop to ask yourself if each individual member is involved in a particular terrorist act or do you shoot first and ask questions later?

    This has gone far enough into morality and philosophy as I have said before Lulu is your anti-hero, but all I see is a scum bag.

    Everyone in Code Geass is a scumbag (except Nunnally) but Lelouch is the protagonist of the story. There’s no way around that fact.

    As far as I can tell Lulu is just drawing from the same emotional arguments put forth by communists to end Western domination the rhetoric is the same equality for all, a better world, we being oppressed, so on and so forth. A world where every one is equal is a utopia it has never come into existence, it is perfect in that sense. Sure he’s saving a few, but those he saves then go on to kill others, and enforce their dominion over other peoples.

    He’s saved Britannian and Japanese alike. Most were either students of Ashford, tourists and your average Japanese schlub.

    They were still shooting women and children with out provocation though you probably think that it was necessary and therefore not a crime.

    The only women and children Lelouch has killed was the Geass Cult, which…as you’ve seen even the kids of Geass did not hesitate to use their Geass on someone who wasn’t a part of the cult.

    I guess they are better off now because instead of being victims of war they are prosecutors of war. Instead of just receiving death they now dole it out to others.

    Not all of the Japanese are engaged in Lelouch’s revolution but all of the Japanese seek to benefit from it. You’re generalizing too much without looking at the big picture.

    Let’s not also forget that Lelouch has support from outside Japan as well which includes China and India.

    I agree that he is multifaceted but nonetheless for me his virtues are outweighed by his sins. Just because Charles is a douche bag does not mean that Lulu can’t be one as well.

    Oh, absolutely. But the litmus test again is, are the Japanese better off with Lelouch or without?

    Without Lelouch they’re slaves with no freedom. With Lelouch, at least 1 million Japanese have been freed from their bondage and many more have a fighting chance at gaining independence.

    His goals are noble yes but given the amount of death needed to get there is the cost in the end going to be worth it. I don’t think it is but you do. Suffice to say we will never agree. You are an optimist, I am a cynic. That’s all there is to it.

    I’m a realist. Every revolution requires substantial bloodshed, even Lelouch acknowledges and accepts this. The American Revolution and French Revolution are prime examples of this. There is no such thing as a non-violent revolution. The one guy who TRIED to pull off one (Ghandi) was shot for his efforts. See the irony there?

    You can’t combat an oppressive militaristic imperialist regime with harsh words, you’re going to have to get your hands dirty.

    If Lelouch was a squeaky clean protagonist that did everything the “nice” way, we might as well be watching Yu-Gi-Oh because it would be that boring. One of the testaments to how “good” Code Geass is, is the fact that it stirs controversy with its characters and garners this much attention and discussion.

64. Halcyon July 16th, 2008 4:40 am

    @Gideon

    I forgot about the refrain (and a bunch more, I really can’t be bothered to remember everything I have seen months ago.), but that is clearly a sign that he’ll do anything to avoid emotional trauma. Yes?

    LOL, no. That’s clearly a sign that no matter what Lelouch does, he can’t avoid emotional trauma. Not if he’s Zero and not if he’s Lelouch. No matter what he does he’s screwed, he has no choice but to forge ahead.

    As for diving after some one on a rooftop. I argue that he did that for his own sake and not for Shirly’s.

    LOL How is putting himself at risk for his sake and not for Shirley’s?

    That is why instead of blaming himself for geassing Shirly in the first place and causing all of this, he goes after the distant cult . He never blames himself, but always the ones responsible for his traumas and faults.

    He blamed the Geass Cult because the Cult sent Rolo (who was the one that actually killed her) and Jeremiah Gottweild (who was the one who cancelled her Geass). If Shirley was still under the effect of the Emperor’s Geass she would’ve had no reason to meet with Suzaku in the first place and would never have been put in danger.

    Also Lulu might rather die than go through another one of his trauma’s if it were up to him. That makes him a coward instead of a hero. Not to sure about this, but I think one could succesfully argue for it.

    If that was true he would’ve killed himself long ago. If anything, Lelouch has shown (especially after learning of his responsibility in Shirley’s father’s death) that his “emotional trauma” makes him stronger and he’s willing to continue going on despite the difficulties that lie ahead.

    I’m not going to argue that Lelouch is a hero because that’s patently false. He doesn’t fit the definition of a classic hero.

    As for his ultimate goal (getting rid of the evil empire): A mere side-effect of his own personal quest for vengeance.

    It’s not a side effect, they are one and the same. He can’t have his vengeance without getting rid of the evil empire. They are inseparable.

    -Oh no, she stopped Lulu from taking justice into his own hands by killing Rolo. The villain. How could she do that! I mean, what is she some kind of person who believes in justice or something. Gasp! (she wasn’t aware of it though, but even if she was, she is hardly a villain because of it. Quite the opposite.)

    Isn’t is justice that Rolo be made to pay for the murder of an innocent victim? Isn’t Cornelia obstructing Justice by interfering?

    I’m not saying Cornelia is a VILLAIN, I’m just saying she’s hardly the hero you’d make her out to be.

    -She is a vigilante? Operating outside the law, using her own methods. As opposed to Zero, who does what exactly? Really now.

    I’ve already said that Lelouch uses questionable means and labeled him as an ANTI-hero. We’re not comparing Lelouch vs Cornelia. The issue here is “Is Cornelia a hero in Code Geass or not? Does she fit the standard definition of what a hero is?” I say not.

    We already know Lelouch isn’t a hero. A hero doesn’t kill to further his goals.

    Good bet, Cornelia exactly knew what kind of operation was going on there (having found the place to begin with, without the help of Rolo and Jeremiah who had actually been there before). She entered through the vents, which means she was trying to be sneaky, because she knew that if she someone saw her, she would have to kill that person. She doesn’t come storming in with a KMF. No, she places herself in a vulnerable position (sneaky stealthy like) in an attempt not to have to kill everyone.

    That doesn’t take away from the fact that she attacked a child with a knife, just because “we don’t know what Geass he could’ve had”.

    In the end, she’s a childkiller!

    -She is used to placing herself in danger? It is her job? So someone isn’t a hero if he is couragous/heroic all the time? “Ah spiderman/batman/superman isn’t a hero, he does that hero-shit all the time.”

    Do you see Spiderman and Superman throwing knives at children’s foreheads? No? Thought so.

    You have some valid point in the Lulu-hero debate, but with regard to Cornelia not being a hero, you are just being silly.

    Heroes don’t/aren’t willing to kill. It’s a cardinal rule of being a hero. Once you cross that line you’re not a hero, you’re a murderer, or more precisely an anti-hero. Cornelia has shown that she’s willing to kill without hesitation. That alone disqualifies her from being a hero. Spiderman/Superman don’t kill their enemies first, if anything killing is a last resort for a hero when they have no other options available.

65. jack July 16th, 2008 6:03 am

    @Halcyon

    To be honest my view of the start of the Tianzi affair was “An amiable dullard gets married off to a sheltered twit, grants of citizenship and patents of nobility for everyone and Everybody Gets to Live. Hurray!” Props to Schneizel, stood to work.

    Also worth pointing out the Geass kids were doing their level best to flee a massacre and surrenders weren’t being honored.

    And I wouldn’t call any japanese working for Lelouch “free”. Or there primarily by Lelouch’s efforts. Face it, the fact those million people aren’t so many charred corpses in a mass grave is because Suzaku Kururugi is a Son of Japan and had hit on a workable plan, and Nunnally Vi Britannia is not a puppet of anyone, her profoundly emotionally damaged brother most of all and sticks to her guns. And Lelouch is using them to reforge a jailhouse of nations.

66. Halcyon July 16th, 2008 6:40 am

    @Jack

    To be honest my view of the start of the Tianzi affair was “An amiable dullard gets married off to a sheltered twit, grants of citizenship and patents of nobility for everyone and Everybody Gets to Live. Hurray!” Props to Schneizel, stood to work.

    If you remember the conversation between Lelouch and the Eunuch Generals, the Eunuchs explicitly said they didn’t care what happened to the Chinese people as long as they got their Brittanian peerage. Not only were they selling out Tianzi (to a marriage she really didn’t want to enter into) but they were also ceding a lot of territory to Britannia (nearly half of the current Federation lands, if I recall correctly).

    While Lelouch’s methods were apalling, they were no different than what Xing Ke was planning to do. The only difference was Lelouch used a gun and Xing Ke used a sword.

    Also worth pointing out the Geass kids were doing their level best to flee a massacre and surrenders weren’t being honored.

    Not entirely true. One of the Black Knight pilots stopped his KnightMare Frame to wonder why children were on the battlefield and as soon as he was within eye sight he was Geassed into killing his parter. These children weren’t exactly “defenseless”, nor did they attempt to escape or negotiate with the pilot who got out of his Knightmare frame.

    Also worth noting, Cornelia was also more than willing to kill the children that had Geass powers without hesitation OR provocation. When Lelouch does it, he’s labeled a monster but when Cornelia starts flinging knives at minors, she’s everyone’s hero.

    That’s hypocrisy at it’s finest for you. It’s okay for some people to commit atrocities but not others @_@

    And I wouldn’t call any japanese working for Lelouch “free”.

    What would you call them then? There are one million people who now have their own country and are free to determine their own fate. In Britannia they were nothing more than slaves at least now, they have the freedom of choice.

    Or there primarily by Lelouch’s efforts. Face it, the fact those million people aren’t so many charred corpses in a mass grave is because Suzaku Kururugi is a Son of Japan and had hit on a workable plan, and Nunnally Vi Britannia is not a puppet of anyone, her profoundly emotionally damaged brother most of all and sticks to her guns. And Lelouch is using them to reforge a jailhouse of nations.

    Everyone, including Suzaku, knows that the exile was already pre-planned by Lelouch knowing full well that Suzaku wouldn’t pull the trigger. If Lelouch didn’t have everyone dress up as Zero, half of those people would’ve been carted off to jail. I wouldn’t call that freedom by any stretch of the imagination.

    I agree with you that Nunnally is her own person. She’s already defied Lelouch and the Emperor by re-establishing the Special Administrative Zone.

    With respect to Lelouch forging a jailhouse of nations, we can go back and forth speculating on this all day, but this will eventually be cleared up in Episode 16, if the spoilers are any indication. Rather than make any premature decisions on what Lelouch is planning with all this international intrigue, let’s just wait and see what that episode bring us =)

67. Crusader July 16th, 2008 11:40 am

    @Halcyon
    Look Lulu did not kill off the JLF because they were terrorists he killed them off so that that he would be the only leader left that they could turn to. He needed Todou but as long as the JLF was still around he could not have him.

    You say Gandhi failed I think you are fool if you think that he achieved nothing. He was shot yes, but that does not mean that he failed India had seen its share of violent rebellions, all of which failed to end the Raj. Gandhi and his policy of non-cooperation succeeded where armed revolution had failed.

    The thing you rebel sympathizers fail to realize is that war is the last option you should ever take. No every rebellion is for the better. Sure it is the quickest way, but it is also the one that leads to death, destruction, and poverty.

    The Geass kids acted well after the no quarter order was given given how Lulu was calling for a massacre how is it that the elevens are justified in killing them for a better future while they are villains for defending them selves the only way they can?

    Lulu does not have to be squeaky clean, but now he’s at the point where he can laugh at the slaughter and order his men to do it on a whim. I know that for you the revolution can never be vilified and that is your luxury not mine. Just because you have never suffered the consequences of revolution does not mean I share such a luxury. Just because he is the protagonist does not mean I have to sympathize with him if I disagree with his philosophy and methods. All you are doing is making excuses for him. The crux of your argument is the same every time “Lulu’s goals are worth the price being paid” for you the goal is already so good that anything done to further it justified even if it is terrible. There is no point in arguing because I will never accept such a philosophy.

    Look I know you love the idea of revolution and the mistaken notion that war is but a small affair. This is a difference in philosophy that no amount of your enthusiasm for the Lulution can change. In my experience revolutions have caused more problems than they have solved.

    I say again, I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of the cries for war — its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers … it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated … that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.

68. Halcyon July 16th, 2008 12:43 pm

    @Crusader

    Look Lulu did not kill off the JLF because they were terrorists he killed them off so that that he would be the only leader left that they could turn to. He needed Todou but as long as the JLF was still around he could not have him.

    I never said Lelouch killed them BECAUSE they were terrorists. I’m saying the JLF were a terrorist group. Why do you blame Lelouch for destroying a terrorist group? LOL It makes no sense. Isn’t destroying terrorists a good thing?

    You say Gandhi failed I think you are fool if you think that he achieved nothing. He was shot yes, but that does not mean that he failed India had seen its share of violent rebellions, all of which failed to end the Raj. Gandhi and his policy of non-cooperation succeeded where armed revolution had failed.

    I never said Ghandi failed or that he achieved nothing. I said his “nonviolent” rebellion, ended in violence. I cited Ghandi as an example of how even nonviolent movements can be involved in violence. I would’ve cited Martin Luther King, Jr. as an example but he was an adulterer.

    The thing you rebel sympathizers fail to realize is that war is the last option you should ever take. No every rebellion is for the better. Sure it is the quickest way, but it is also the one that leads to death, destruction, and poverty.

    Revolution is better than slavery! Let’s not forget that Lelouch didn’t START this revolution. He just took over and consolidated the different groups that were ALREADY REBELLING against Britannia (Kirihara’s 6 Houses of Kyoto, Ougi’s Group and Toudoh). And I’m not a “rebel sympathizer”, I’m just pointing out very inconvenient facts that people are all too eager to forget.

    The name of the show is “Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion“, who do you think is supposed to be the protagonist, if not Lelouch? LOL

    The Geass kids acted well after the no quarter order was given given how Lulu was calling for a massacre how is it that the elevens are justified in killing them for a better future while they are villains for defending them selves the only way they can?

    Because these children are ticking timebombs. Are you seriously saying that, given the fact that all of these kids had superpowers that Lelouch should’ve ‘played nice’?

    Why is it okay for Cornelia to fling knives at Geass Kids but not for Lelouch to kill them? Double standards..

    Lulu does not have to be squeaky clean, but now he’s at the point where he can laugh at the slaughter and order his men to do it on a whim. I know that for you the revolution can never be vilified and that is your luxury not mine. Just because you have never suffered the consequences of revolution does not mean I share such a luxury. Just because he is the protagonist does not mean I have to sympathize with him if I disagree with his philosophy and methods. All you are doing is making excuses for him. The crux of your argument is the same every time “Lulu’s goals are worth the price being paid” for you the goal is already so good that anything done to further it justified even if it is terrible. There is no point in arguing because I will never accept such a philosophy.

    My position has never changed from the start and that is Lelouch is better than the alternative, which is a lifetime of slavery and oppression under Charles vi Britannia. That is ALL that I have been pointing out since the get-go.

    Yes, Lelouch uses terrible methods to achieve his goals but he’s still better than Charles and as long as he’s a step-up from the current regime and there are no alternatives presented by Code Geass (and there really aren’t anymore since Suzaku has turned to the dark side) who are you going to root for? Charles and V.V?

    Look I know you love the idea of revolution and the mistaken notion that war is but a small affair. This is a difference in philosophy that no amount of your enthusiasm for the Lulution can change. In my experience revolutions have caused more problems than they have solved.

    Another assumption! Not a fan of revolution. I’d rather the United States remained a British Colony, in fact. Maybe then their currency would be worth something! I love the idea of a conflicted protagonist. Without Lelouch being a dirty bastard, Code Geass turns into another cheap Gundam ripoff. I’d rather have a protagonist with more depth than your standard “Let’s save the world with love and peace and friendship POWAAAA KAWAIIIIIIIIII!!!”. The fact that Lelouch has flaws makes him easier to relate to than your standard moralfag like Season One’s Suzaku.

    Although I do agree with you that Lelouch does tend to plumb the depths of Shinji Ikari-esque emo-ness but I think that serves as a counterbalance to his evil megalomaniacal presentation. =)

    I say again, I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of the cries for war — its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers … it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated … that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.

    I can surely appreciate that your military experience has left you somewhat cynical and skeptical of lofty ideals but this is just a good show about a protagonist that not everyone is going to agree with or like. Everyone who watches this show is going to come away with something different from it.

    My issue is people taking the characters out of the context of the show. It’s inaccurate and misleading. If anything, there’s no way you can take a show seriously that has its cast of characters run around wearing ass hats.

    I take this show for what it is: An engaging and addictive Shounen Mecha with elements of comedy, drama and plenty of fanservice. Sure, a lot of people are pissed off at Lelouch and how he does business but that doesn’t stop them from tuning into Code Geass every week

    Just my 2 cents.

69. Crusader July 16th, 2008 1:49 pm

    @Halcyon
    You claimed that Lulu did not kill Japanese, the JLF were Japanese.

    Gandhi was killed after he achieved independence for them the Raj, his goals were attained the Raj was over by the time he was shot.

    Again it all depends on whether or not you believe that Lulu has entered villain territory, You say that those kids were ticking time bombs and that alone justifies their slaughter. Using that same line of thinking every Middle Eastern Kid is a terrorist waiting to happen, yet would it be justified if I slaughtered them all? I think not.

    Oh yes slavery… I never heard of any slave that actually got paid. How else could they get refrain? You say slavery, but it is not, it is oppression of a defeated people, but it is not slavery. You throw around that term carelessly, slavery implies much harsher conditions than have been demonstrated. Given how there is an active drug trade it must mean that the elevens are getting money from somewhere, so since they are being paid I can’t say that this is slavery in the true definition.

    Cornelia gets pass because her victim was the immortal V2, she didn’t actually kill him mind you…nor was she laughing and relishing in the act.

    Good for you that you can relate to a man capable of mass murder for a most just cause. I however do not relate to such things. Nor can I imagine myself shooting up a whole people just for revenge. Sure he’s interesting, but that does not mean I have to like him. I don’t, I won’t and that is all there is to it. Shinji Ikari was a protagonist too, I never liked him, and I have no obligation to like Lulu.

70. korosora July 16th, 2008 3:16 pm

    >>”… Toudou and his woman, eating apples in a hotel room…”
    I wonder which one of them cut the apples.

71. Halcyon July 16th, 2008 3:27 pm

    @Halcyon

    You claimed that Lulu did not kill Japanese, the JLF were Japanese.

    I claimed he didn’t kill innocent Japanese. The JLF were hardly innocent.

    Gandhi was killed after he achieved independence for them the Raj, his goals were attained the Raj was over by the time he was shot.

    You left out the fact that upon attaining independence violent conflict erupted between Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs in 1947.

    Again it all depends on whether or not you believe that Lulu has entered villain territory, You say that those kids were ticking time bombs and that alone justifies their slaughter.

    A Villain is defined as the antithesis of the hero the story. Since Lelouch has already been defined as the protagonist of Code Geass there’s no way he can be the ‘villain’. Has he committed acts of villainy? Yes! But he’s still the protagonist.

    Using that same line of thinking every Middle Eastern Kid is a terrorist waiting to happen, yet would it be justified if I slaughtered them all? I think not.

    Except every Middle Eastern kid doesn’t have superpowers that can murder you just by making eye contact.

    Again, Context!!

    Oh yes slavery… I never heard of any slave that actually got paid. How else could they get refrain?

    Have you ever heard of indentured servitude? I say “slavery” because they have no free will. Their lives are controlled by their conquerors. Disobedience leads to imprisonment, or worse death. That doesn’t sound like a “free” society to me.

    You say slavery, but it is not, it is oppression of a defeated people, but it is not slavery. You throw around that term carelessly, slavery implies much harsher conditions than have been demonstrated. Given how there is an active drug trade it must mean that the elevens are getting money from somewhere, so since they are being paid I can’t say that this is slavery in the true definition.

    I use the term slavery for dramatic effect. But the simple fact remains that this people are not ‘free’. They are at the mercy of a foreign occupant and deprived of their basic liberties and national identity. That is a fact!

    Cornelia gets pass because her victim was the immortal V2, she didn’t actually kill him mind you…nor was she laughing and relishing in the act.

    Cornelia didn’t know he was immortal though, or that V2 was her uncle. All she saw was a kid who crept up from behind and she immediately threw a knife at his forehead and then coldly turned away.

    She didn’t try to confirm whether or not he had a Geass before attacking him or if he was a threat. She attacked first and didn’t even think twice about the fact that he appeared to be a child. She brushed it off and justified it as killing him because she DIDNT KNOW what kind of Geass he had. That’s very similar to Lelouch wiping out the Cult because they had Geass, don’t you think?

    Good for you that you can relate to a man capable of mass murder for a most just cause.

    Mass murder?

    The only “masses” Lelouch has murdered was the JLF. Every other death was the result of active combat between two military forces or casualties attributed to a military campaign.

    I however do not relate to such things. Nor can I imagine myself shooting up a whole people just for revenge.

    See above.

    Sure he’s interesting, but that does not mean I have to like him. I don’t, I won’t and that is all there is to it. Shinji Ikari was a protagonist too, I never liked him, and I have no obligation to like Lulu.

    You don’t have to like him! But to target him as the only douchebag in CG is discriminatory. He’s not even the biggest douchebag! Charles is! Spread the hate man!!!

    ANYWAY! Having said that, I’m super excited to see how Charles vs Lelouch in the World of C will play out on Sunday!

72. Crusader July 16th, 2008 5:25 pm

    @Halcyon
    Look just because the Hindus and Muslims went at it in 1947 does not mean Gandhi was unsuccessful. Using that kind of logic every national father is failure because every nation has gone to war at some point. I don’t recall Gandhi baying for blood in 1947 he reluctantly accepted partition as a means to avert war. Just because you think violence is the only way to achieve some thing does not mean his accomplishment did not far exceeded that of his predecessors. 1947 came after official independence Gandhi won that struggle, but he could not prevent civil war. While you may think it would have been preferable to prevent the Muslims from breaking away how could it have been done? Did they not have a right to self-determination as well? What happened was a tragedy, but Gandhi did what he could it was unfortunately enough. I doubt any one could have altered the course of events, I certainly doubt you would have had a good solution to keep two antagonists in the same country. Even if you use bayonets to keep things together things were already in motion that would have led to inevitable conflict. On the eve of 1947 there is nothing that I can think of that would have prevented partition once Jinnah and the Pakistanis insisted upon it. The British were too weak by then to keep any prolonged order, and the nascent states of India and Pakistan were unable to cope. To say that Gandhi allowed for the events of 1947 to happen are false he did what he could do, we cannot ask more form him because by then not even force on the part of any of the involved parties could have prevented it.

    One mass murder is all it takes just because you deem the eradication of the cult as necessary does not make it any less of a crime. Not everyone there had superpowers and is not a suicide bomber or airplane hijacker just as devastating as a geass kid? You are being far too selective with your title of innocent. Lulu was ultimately responsible for the massacre in season 1. Just because it was an accident does not mean he was not responsible and make it a purely Britannian massacre. This is why I loathe such ideas the very idea that some massacres and not others are allowable, you diminish the scale of Lulu’s crimes citing justification.

    Of course there are other baddies in Code Geass however your mission seems to try and cast a better light on Lulu because his justifications are more pleasant sounding. The man laughed as his victims screamed in terror, as his men butchered them on false pretext.

    Cornelia kills because she had to she did not relish in the act as Lulu did. He was laughing manically as his men shot everything that moved.

    You put Lulu on a pedestal and I thought that was what we were discussing Lulu, your hero. Again there are other ass-hats, but Lulu is not special he is little better than Charles. Just because he makes a more eloquent argument to justify his crimes does not mean his acts are no less criminal than those of Charles.

73. Halcyon July 16th, 2008 6:26 pm

    @Halcyon
    Look just because the Hindus and Muslims went at it in 1947 does not mean Gandhi was unsuccessful.

    I never said he was unsuccessful. Again, you’re making assumptions. I merely stated that even in nonviolent revolutions, violence does occur. Conflict is inevitable when you have two diametrically opposed forces that will not compromise their ideals or goals.

    One mass murder is all it takes just because you deem the eradication of the cult as necessary does not make it any less of a crime.

    I didn’t deem it necessary! The writers of Code Geass did! I just agreed with them.

    Not everyone there had superpowers and is not a suicide bomber or airplane hijacker just as devastating as a geass kid?

    I’ve never seen a child suicide bomber or an child airplane hijacker.

    You are being far too selective with your title of innocent. Lulu was ultimately responsible for the massacre in season 1.

    Nowhere did I say Lelouch was “innocent” of anything. I’ve openly admitted on many of my responses that Lelouch’s methods are repugnant.

    What I have said, multiple times, is that within the CONTEXT of the world that Lelouch lives in, his methods are no more reprehensible than those of his opponents.

    Just because it was an accident does not mean he was not responsible and make it a purely Britannian massacre. This is why I loathe such ideas the very idea that some massacres and not others are allowable, you diminish the scale of Lulu’s crimes citing justification.

    LOL It was an accident. If someone hands you a gun and the gun goes off in your hand accidentally and someone gets shot, does that make you a murderer by proxy?
    His Geass went off on accident. The results were purely incidental.

    Of course there are other baddies in Code Geass however your mission seems to try and cast a better light on Lulu because his justifications are more pleasant sounding.

    No, that’s not correct. My mission is to correct this aberrant thinking that Lelouch is the greatest evil in Code Geass. He’s action are reprehensible but his results are mixed. He has accomplished good things as well as bad. It’s entirely false to paint Lelouch as purely evil or purely good. He’s a mixture of both.

    Some of you seem to selectively portray only his negative qualities when discussing his character, which prompts me (and possibly others) to even it out by reminding you of the proper CONTEXT of those actions.

    The man laughed as his victims screamed in terror, as his men butchered them on false pretext.

    Oh c’mon now, that just means he has a healthy sense of humor!

    Cornelia kills because she had to she did not relish in the act as Lulu did. He was laughing manically as his men shot everything that moved.

    Because she had to? Of what threat did V.V pose to Cornelia before she chucked daggers at his forehead? LOL. Cornelia is a Britannian Princess. She couldn’t care less about any non-Britannian. She may not relish the carnage, but she’s certainly indifferent to it!

    Tell me one thing, are you going to turn against Cornelia when she joins Lelouch’s merry band of murderers?

    You put Lulu on a pedestal and I thought that was what we were discussing Lulu, your hero.

    LOL. How have I put him on a pedestal? I’ve openly admitted that his actions are BAD. I never claimed he was a hero. I’ve specifically said ANTI-hero. LOL.

    What I’m doing, and have been doing since this discussion started, is providing a Yin to your Yang.

    Again there are other ass-hats, but Lulu is not special he is little better than Charles. Just because he makes a more eloquent argument to justify his crimes does not mean his acts are no less criminal than those of Charles.

    Lelouch is better than Charles. That’s all that matters! If Charles is Hitler then Lelouch is Stalin and who would you rather have in power, Hitler or Stalin?

74. Calawain July 16th, 2008 7:18 pm

    You guys seem to be having a lot of fun. This is great for my blog metric stats.

75. Crusader July 16th, 2008 10:30 pm

    @Halcyon
    Hmm…by buying into their justification you are justifying it.

    Those suicide bombers were kids once, or do they magically appear from some unknown source?

    Look just because it was an accident does not mean that Lulu is not at fault. lastly any one who hands some one else a loaded weapon with round chambered and safety off is still liable in the court of law for gross negligence. Honestly if you do that you deserve to go to jail for being an ignoramus, any responsible gun owner would know how to clear his weapon before handing it off. It was more like a car accident but Lulu was driving drunk. We do not excuse people for their gross negligence in a court of law. Why should this accident be any different? It’s not like we can simply put all that death be hind them and let by gones be bygones. Lulu was not only at fault he threw Euphie under a bus while he was at it. That was a double betrayal of the truth and Euphie. Perhaps it is as you say not second degree murder but it was Euphicular manslaughter, and that pal means jail 15 years minimum.

    How is thinking that Lulu is just about as evil as Charles abberant (improper)? Look just because you might be a sis-con yourself does not mean that us non-sis cons are wrong…

    Seriously there is no right or wrong here, he’s your dear protagonist there is no arguing with that. Honestly if given a choice between having a Hitler or a Stalin, Hitler is the way to go. Because you see Stalin killed many more people, Hitler was incompetent Stalin however survived into old age. Hitler you could evade for a time and with greater success, Stalin just grabbed people willy nilly. Don’t be silly you have no idea what Stalin was capable of if you think Hitler was some how more or less evil. The difference you see was never about which one was more evil, the difference lay in their methods. Stalin was just as evil but far more competent, Hitler was evil to boot, but ultimately proved to be an idiot.

    @Calawain
    Quite you, I am taking half credit!

76. Acerbus July 17th, 2008 12:39 am

    Amazing….I ended up spending a good chunk of my time reading this debate.

    I’m not going to jump in (because of lack of time and I really should be finishing a project) but Crusader+ Halcyon bring up many interesting points that are fun to read.

77. Halcyon July 17th, 2008 3:58 am

    @Crusader

    Hmm…by buying into their justification you are justifying it.

    LOLWUT?

    Those suicide bombers were kids once, or do they magically appear from some unknown source?

    Everyone was a kid once. That makes no sense. The point is, the Geass Children weren’t some innocent people that had the potential of becoming dangerous. They were already dangerous. They possessed abilities similar to Rolo and Mao. Who’s to say what would’ve happened if they were allowed to continue?

    Let’s not forget the Geass Cult was led by V.V. who sent 2 assassins to eliminate Lelouch already. Was he supposed to sit and wait for more assassins to show up at his door before taking appropriate action? Why not eliminate the source of the problem instead of doing it piece by piece? That sounds like a sound military strategy to me!

    Look just because it was an accident does not mean that Lulu is not at fault. lastly any one who hands some one else a loaded weapon with round chambered and safety off is still liable in the court of law for gross negligence.

    LOL So you’re saying C.C. would be liable for handing Lelouch the Geass in the first place?

    Again, you’re taking the show out of its context. You can’t apply our legal standards to Geass. It’s a different world and a different culture. It’s like going to a foreign country and telling their people their laws are stupid because they’re not the same as yours.

    Honestly if you do that you deserve to go to jail for being an ignoramus, any responsible gun owner would know how to clear his weapon before handing it off.

    Here’s the difference. Lelouch is not an experienced gun owner. The Geass itself is unlike any weapon in the world. He had no idea it would spontaneously and randomly go off. It was an unprecedented event.

    It was more like a car accident but Lulu was driving drunk. We do not excuse people for their gross negligence in a court of law. Why should this accident be any different?

    See above

    It’s not like we can simply put all that death be hind them and let by gones be bygones. Lulu was not only at fault he threw Euphie under a bus while he was at it. That was a double betrayal of the truth and Euphie.

    If he hadn’t told his troops that Euphie’s special administrative zone was a trap, more japanese people would have died.

    Did you really expect him to say “Hey guys, guess what? I have this superpower that makes anyone do whatever I tell them to do and it accidentally went off while I was talking to Euphemia and caused her to kill tons of Japanese people. My bad!”

    That would be the end of the show and there wouldn’t be a Season Two. LOL
    You’re not thinking logically.

    Perhaps it is as you say not second degree murder but it was Euphicular manslaughter, and that pal means jail 15 years minimum.

    It’s not manslaughter if someone is holding a an automated machine gun and shooting people in a crowded area. It’s self-defense. And we normally don’t prosecute people for self-defense. Or for stopping people from killing.

    If that were the case, every police officer who ever shot a suspect to prevent them from further killing would be getting 15 years prison sentence instead of a commendation.

    How is thinking that Lulu is just about as evil as Charles abberant (improper)?

    Because he isn’t. It’s already been shown that Lelouch has a core fundamental difference than Charles. Charles believes in a world of segregation, of haves and have-nots, of superior and inferior people. Lelouch believes in a world of equal opportunity. Lelouch’s ultimate goal is to find out the truth behind his mother’s murder and to help protect Nunnally. Charles’ ultimate goal is to control the world and “kill the gods”.

    The two use similar methods but they’re not the same.

    Look just because you might be a sis-con yourself does not mean that us non-sis cons are wrong…

    LOLWUT? Lelouch cares about more than just his sister. He “doesn’t want to lose anyone else”, which is why he dove off the roof to save Shirley.

    That’s not something Charles would EVER do for his own family, let alone a close friend.

    Seriously there is no right or wrong here, he’s your dear protagonist there is no arguing with that. Honestly if given a choice between having a Hitler or a Stalin, Hitler is the way to go. Because you see Stalin killed many more people, Hitler was incompetent Stalin however survived into old age.

    LOLWUT? I’m glad you weren’t in charge of WWII forces. With that thinking, we’d all be speaking German right now. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from but Stalin died in 1953, which was only 8 years after Hitler committed suicide.

    The number of estimated deaths attributed to Stalin’s great purge was approximately 950,000 to 1.2 million. That is considerably less than the amount of death Hitler was responsible for.

    The issue isn’t “who’s killed more people” but who was the bigger threat to the world. Sure, Stalin killed millions of people, but he never tried to conquer the world. He was the “lesser evil”, in much the same way Lelouch is the “lesser evil” in Code Geass.

    More people have been killed in Darfur than in Iraq. You don’t see US military forces jumping into to depose the regime in Darfur, even though the constant murder there has been classified as GENOCIDE. Why is that? Because the Janjaweed in Darfur don’t pose a threat to the world. It’s not the quantity of victims that is the most important determination in military engagement, it’s the magnitude of the threat that the other side poses.

    Hitler you could evade for a time and with greater success, Stalin just grabbed people willy nilly.

    Are you serious? How did the 6 million Jews evade Hitler? Stalin didn’t “grab people willy nilly”, he grabbed political opponents and people who could oppose him within the Communist Party. Most of the deaths he was responsible for were from Trotsky’s supporters within the Communist Party. It’s not like these people were hard to find. They were already part of the party.

    Don’t be silly you have no idea what Stalin was capable of if you think Hitler was some how more or less evil.

    See above.

    The difference you see was never about which one was more evil, the difference lay in their methods. Stalin was just as evil but far more competent, Hitler was evil to boot, but ultimately proved to be an idiot.

    How was he an idiot? LOL. He conquered most of Europe. It’s not Hitler’s fault that the Japanese, in their infinite wisdom, decided to attack the Americans and get them involved in the War. Without American involvement, Hitler would’ve conquered the rest of France and moved in on England.

    The only -real- tactical error Hitler made was invading Russia and breaking their non-aggression pact. That was stupid. But he’s not the only one to underestimate the Russian winter. Napolean made that same error some 100 years earlier.

78. Crusader July 17th, 2008 9:54 am

    @Halcyon
    Look Stalin offed roughly 2 million civilians during the great purge and roughly 410,000 military personnel. During Collectivization there were an estimated 12 million deaths because you know that was the policy then too. In Mongolia Stalin killed of somewhere between 20,000-100,000 people roughly 4% of then the total population. Another 230,000 POWs show cam back from captivity in Germany were executed, under Order no. 270 and no. 227. As for not wanting to conquer the world Stalin was making moves in Korea, and let’s not forget the fate of Eastern Europe or were those people allowed to build ginger bread houses and gumdrop lanes? Now while 6 million Jews did perish there were people who willingly tried to help them Schindler, Wilhelm Canaris, Raoul Wallenberg, the Danes, and many other notable people who were able to stand up for what was right. You see Stalin created an atmosphere of fear where no one was really willing to help out their fellows, the NKVD had agents or it seemed to have agents everywhere.

    Go ahead and LOL if that is your prerogative because you share the ability to laugh at the deaths of people because they are a mere statistic to you…

    Lastly Hitler did not conquer almost all of Europe his generals did, and when Hitler took command it always ended badly. You sir obviously know nothing of the war given your claim that Hitler was some military genius who nearly conquered all of Europe. The invasion of Russia was a Strategic error, comrade, you do not know much about the war, you don’t even know much about military operations if you call Operation Barbarossa a tactical mistake.

    Your words were galling and impudent. Clearly you never did brush up on your Russian History, I suggest you do more research on Russia. I’d comment on the Geass crap but your “LOLWUT? I’m glad you weren’t in charge of WWII forces. With that thinking, we’d all be speaking German right now. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from but Stalin died in 1953, which was only 8 years after Hitler committed suicide.” really crossed the line. Lastly Stalin died a natural death at age of 74 that’s pretty darn old if you ask me.

79. Halcyon July 17th, 2008 10:41 am

    @Halcyon
    Look Stalin offed roughly 2 million civilians during the great purge and roughly 410,000 military personnel.

    During Collectivization there were an estimated 12 million deaths because you know that was the policy then too.

    I’ve not seen any statistics regarding any deaths directly attributed to Collectivization so I can’t really opine on that.

    In Mongolia Stalin killed of somewhere between 20,000-100,000 people roughly 4% of then the total population. Another 230,000 POWs show cam back from captivity in Germany were executed, under Order no. 270 and no. 227.

    That’s still, considerably less, than the number of victims massacred by the SS.

    As for not wanting to conquer the world Stalin was making moves in Korea, and let’s not forget the fate of Eastern Europe or were those people allowed to build ginger bread houses and gumdrop lanes?

    Stalin didn’t “make moves on Korea”. Korea was divided up by the US and the Soviet Union after the Japanese Occupants were defeated in WWII. The USSR stopped their advance on Korea at the 38th parallel as per their agreement. Both the US and the USSR set up provisional governments that eventually declared independence due to their competing ideological philosophies.

    Now while 6 million Jews did perish there were people who willingly tried to help them Schindler, Wilhelm Canaris, Raoul Wallenberg, the Danes, and many other notable people who were able to stand up for what was right. You see Stalin created an atmosphere of fear where no one was really willing to help out their fellows, the NKVD had agents or it seemed to have agents everywhere.

    Fair Enough. There’s no evidence to show that Russians were aided by their fellow countrymen. I’ll “lend” you that point, until I can find sufficient historical evidence to disprove it.

    Go ahead and LOL if that is your prerogative because you share the ability to laugh at the deaths of people because they are a mere statistic to you…

    I “LOL” because your reasoning is sporadic, emotional and entirely biased. You, continue, to take events out of context to fit your predisposed beliefs.

    Lastly Hitler did not conquer almost all of Europe his generals did, and when Hitler took command it always ended badly.

    LOL!! By that Logic, Lelouch did not kill most of those Britannians. His Soldiers did.

    You sir obviously know nothing of the war given your claim that Hitler was some military genius who nearly conquered all of Europe.

    Where did I make the claim that Hitler was a military genius?

    I merely stated the fact that the only tactical error Hitler committed was breaking the non-aggression pact with the USSR. He had to have SOME intelligence to have a semi-successful campaign. If he was as stupid as you say, then why was he responsible for nearly conqueroring all of Europe? He may not have been militarily gifted, but to write him off as “stupid” is just wrong and not supported by the facts.

    The invasion of Russia was a Strategic error, comrade, you do not know much about the war, you don’t even know much about military operations if you call Operation Barbarossa a tactical mistake.

    I already said that invading Russia was a mistake.. Where’s your issue with that? LOL

    Your words were galling and impudent. Clearly you never did brush up on your Russian History, I suggest you do more research on Russia. I’d comment on the Geass crap but your “LOLWUT? I’m glad you weren’t in charge of WWII forces. With that thinking, we’d all be speaking German right now. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from but Stalin died in 1953, which was only 8 years after Hitler committed suicide.” really crossed the line. Lastly Stalin died a natural death at age of 74 that’s pretty darn old if you ask me.

    The point is, your logic is to ignore the bigger threat in favor of stemming more casualties. That is fallacious reasoning of the highest sort.

    You never did answer my question about Cornelia.

    When she joins Lelouch and officially sanctions him as her ally will you repudiate her as you’ve done Lelouch?

    Evidence shows that Cornelia doesn’t blame Lelouch for Euphie’s death. She blames the Geass and the source of the Geass is the Geass Cult.

    So WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO, BROTHER, WHEN LELOUCHMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

80. Crusader July 17th, 2008 11:27 am

    @Halycon
    So WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO, BROTHER, WHEN LELOUCHMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

    The Geass debate is dead. Let’s leave it at that.

    If you knew anything about modern war then you know the difference between strategy and tactics.

    You see sir, Hitler did take command in 1944 at the Bulge he ordered an offensive that his tanks could not even hope to manage given that even if the Panthers drove straight on to Brussels they would not have had enough fuel. The Fall of France was von Manstien’s plan not Hitler’s. At Stalingrad Hitler ordered the Sixth Army to fight to death while his general staff protested and von Manstien was begging Paulus to breakout. By the time Hitler gave permission it was too late. Hitler’s insistence on no retreat made the German defense of their gains all but impossible, Guederian, von Manstien, and just about every other general not in the SS were pleading that a mobile defense would be better than fighting battles of attrition. The disaster at Kursk was instigated because Hitler needed a victory to keep his allies in the war. At Normandy Hitler split the command between Rommel and von Rundstedt and basically deployed their forces in a manner that made both men unhappy and compromised whatever plans they had for the defense against Overlord. At the same place Hitler did not allow von Rundstedt to use his armored reserve until it was too late as he still insisted that Normandy was a diversion. Hitler, comrade was no military genius. He had a talented General Staff that was left over from the previous administration. When he listened they did well, when he did not they failed. Hitler was nothing more than Corporal, he was in fact militarily stupid.

    You underestimate the ingenuity of the Soviets, they were a more significant threat in later years than you can possibly imagine, their spy rings were pervasive, they had plenty of men like Philby and his Cambridge Five. Richard Sorge gave Stalin accurate intel on Japanese intentions and the Soviets did manage to reverse engineer the B-29 and steal enough information to help them make their own nuclear arsenal. Their rapid achievement of a nuclear arsenal is a testament to the cunning and skill of the Soviets. They far outstripped Hitler in this regard. So tell me who is the bigger threat the dictator with a nuclear arsenal or the one with out? Honestly they were both a threat Stalin however was the more competent one, its not about numbers Stalin was calculating where Hitler was emotional. Stalin made fewer mistakes than Hitler and it does show.

81. Halcyon July 17th, 2008 11:54 am

    @Crusader

    The Geass debate is dead. Let’s leave it at that.

    Awww, that’s such a copout!!

    If you knew anything about modern war then you know the difference between strategy and tactics.

    Fair enough. My knowledge of military procedures IS limited. I’m not denying that.

    You see sir, Hitler did take command in 1944 at the Bulge he ordered an offensive that his tanks could not even hope to manage given that even if the Panthers drove straight on to Brussels they would not have had enough fuel. The Fall of France was von Manstien’s plan not Hitler’s. At Stalingrad Hitler ordered the Sixth Army to fight to death while his general staff protested and von Manstien was begging Paulus to breakout. By the time Hitler gave permission it was too late. Hitler’s insistence on no retreat made the German defense of their gains all but impossible, Guederian, von Manstien, and just about every other general not in the SS were pleading that a mobile defense would be better than fighting battles of attrition. The disaster at Kursk was instigated because Hitler needed a victory to keep his allies in the war. At Normandy Hitler split the command between Rommel and von Rundstedt and basically deployed their forces in a manner that made both men unhappy and compromised whatever plans they had for the defense against Overlord. At the same place Hitler did not allow von Rundstedt to use his armored reserve until it was too late as he still insisted that Normandy was a diversion. Hitler, comrade was no military genius. He had a talented General Staff that was left over from the previous administration. When he listened they did well, when he did not they failed. Hitler was nothing more than Corporal, he was in fact militarily stupid.

    I never claimed that Hitler was a military genius. But just because he had no gift for combat, himself, does not take away from his accomplishments and achievements. You can’t say he had no hand in conquering most of Europe, because ultimately, he’s the leader. The Top Banana. The Head Honcho. The Ichiban! Just as his losses are his responsbilities, his victories are also. You can’t deny him credit as Commandant!

    You underestimate the ingenuity of the Soviets, they were a more significant threat in later years than you can possibly imagine, their spy rings were pervasive, they had plenty of men like Philby and his Cambridge Five.

    I’m going to highlight the KEY PHRASE there because it’s important to note that: In that specific time frame when you compare Hitler and Stalin, Hitler was much more of a threat to global security than Stalin was. Stalin did not have an “axis” to rely on. For the most part, Stalin’s “allies” included conquered terrorities that were liberated from the Japanese. Those terroritories were all too willing to welcome the Soviets as liberators from their Japanese oppressors.

    Stalin only became a threat after WWII. And even then, there were no direct military confrontations between the USSR and the US. Only proxy wars fought mostly in Korea, Afghanistan and other third-world territories.

    Richard Sorge gave Stalin accurate intel on Japanese intentions and the Soviets did manage to reverse engineer the B-29 and steal enough information to help them make their own nuclear arsenal. Their rapid achievement of a nuclear arsenal is a testament to the cunning and skill of the Soviets. They far outstripped Hitler in this regard. So tell me who is the bigger threat the dictator with a nuclear arsenal or the one with out?

    Again, Crusader, you’re losing CONTEXT. At the time of WWII. No one had a nuclear arsenal. Or nuclear capability (until the Americans achieved a usable weapon first).

    If you’re going to compare the two you have to do it honestly and equally. Otherwise, it’s not a fair comparison.

    Honestly they were both a threat Stalin however was the more competent one, its not about numbers Stalin was calculating where Hitler was emotional. Stalin made fewer mistakes than Hitler and it does show.

    Hitler was an eccentric! Stalin may have been more militarily competent but it’s debateable if he was a ‘larger threat’ than Hitler. After all, Stalin only survived for another 8 years after Hitler’s fall. The Soviet’s didn’t even TEST their first atomic bomb until August 29, 1949. 4 Years before Stalin’s death. The Soviets also had no known domestic sources of uranium ore. The first Soviet nuclear reactor used uranium that was confiscated from the German atomic bomb project. It wasn’t until much later that the Soviets discovered domestic supplies of Uranium.

    The first Soviet test of the hydrogren bomb occured in August 12, 1953. Four months AFTER Stalin had already died. So it’s a little misleading to say that Stalin was a dictator with a nuclear arsenal.

    One could make the argument that, if not for Germany losing the war, the Soviets would have no fissible material with which to start their nuclear program.

    The Soviets were STILL testing nuclear weapons before AND AFTER Stalin had died. So again, it’s debateable how much of a threat he was because he had no known nuclear arsenal.

    In that respect, Stalin is comparable to today’s Kim Jong Il.

    I eagerly await your rebuttal ^___________________^

82. Suma Sang July 17th, 2008 2:07 pm

    I came back to see where this crazy debate has headed.

    So WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO, BROTHER, WHEN LELOUCHMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

    @ Halcyon:

    You have balls.

    @ Crusader:

    Though you CAN argue, buddy, I think Halcyon just shit on you. (No offense.)

    *

    I LOVE YOU BOTH! MWA!

    Hope the next episode inspires another debate like this. And from the preview, it looks mighty promising.

83. Crusader July 17th, 2008 7:55 pm

    @Halcyon
    Look at this point arguing any more about Lulu is like arguing about religion it’s pointless. Also you have already been using CAPS LOCK long enough, I know cruise control for cool.

    Just because FDR was President does not mean that he was the victor at Midway. Germany conquered much of Europe in spite of Hitler not because of him. The military build up was already underway long before 1933. Hitler loved to take credit for everything that went right, but you will find that beyond his honeyed lies is some lesser known commander. By your reasoning Hitler was responsible for all of Rommel’s victories because Hitler was Fuhrer. You fail to understand that Hitler was able to do what he did because the German military was world class, the Wehrmacht was the harbinger of modern warfare. The Heer was ahead in doctrine, communications, unit tactics, and combined arms attacks. If Hitler had only the Italian Army he would not have conquered much at all. Hitler had the will to use a world class military for conquest. He was ambitious and he did surround himself with reliable cronies and sack any one who was a threat to him regardless of their expertise.

    Your definition of context is funny and strange the events I mentioned all involved Stalin, but sure… In 1944 Stalin was a biggest threat to global security because the German defeat was a forgone conclusion after Normandy, and Kursk. Strategic initiative was lost to Germany, their attempt at the Bulge to regain it was opposed by every sane commander left in the Heer. In 1944 the Soviet Military machine was vastly larger than any other and its armies were already entrenching themselves into Eastern Europe. In 1945 they swept through Northern China in Operation August Storm and began setting up radical regimes one of which still haunts us today.

    If we look earlier Stalin was executing purges, persecuting every religion, and forcibly deporting minority groups to Siberia in states out side of Russia prior to 1939. In the Soviet occupation, prior to the USSR joining the Allies, included such states as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and the Ukraine. While these states may not exist for you they were part of the world and their security was compromised. So in effect Stalin was already threatening world security, but we just did not care enough about such places. In China Stalin was supporting a Communist Insurgency under Mao Zedong and further destabilizing China. He was building spy rings across the globe, the Cambridge Five were recruited in the 1930s. In 1930 the Stalin was supporting extremist groups against their erstwhile coalition allies of the Spanish Republic. Stalin was committing terrorism abroad as he sent hitmen across the globe to kill critics like Trotsky in territories where he had no sovereignty.

    But wait, I can already hear you say, those events happened before 1939 they are completely out of context, well then I suggest you look up the History of Poland and Finland. For you see Stalin waged two wars before joining the Allies. In Poland Stalin invaded his neighbor in League with Hitler. Soon after overrunning the Poles Stalin massacred those who posed a threat to Soviet Hegemony which included the usual gamut of the religious leaders, members of political parties, any one associated with the Polish Army, and any one who dared to speak up. In Finland he tried to make them a satellite state and annex more territory. Again this was during WWII so you see Stalin was a threat to global peace and stability. It’s just that people like you never heard or care about such places, Stalin was a threat, he was just adroit enough to threaten the places no one cared about. Back then all those places like Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Finland, Poland, and the Ukraine, were states no one really cared to do anything about. They were back then, what Africa is now. Shit happens, but we never talk of such things as often as other topics, nor do we really care enough to do much about it.

    Also you do not need a hydrogen bomb to become a nuclear power.As you said the Soviets detonated a bomb in 1949 and since then Stalin did have a nuclear arsenal, a modest one, but he had one nonetheless to qualify as a nuclear power. India and Pakistan have only announced that they have fission bombs, but are considered nuclear powers despite the fact that the US and Russia hold 96% of all nuclear weapons.

84. Muriel July 18th, 2008 1:15 am

    Sugoi!
    This has gone from Code Geass to Universal History, (WWII, CW) I must thank you I have learned a lot, and clarified some points the last hours…
    As a outsider I must say that both of you got valid points, (to make this fair I must state Im a Lulu fan) but I should keep a neutral position…
    Ill say that Lulu is not more evil than his father (MY OPINION) he shows feelings of regret in some of his acts like the murdered of japanese at the hands of Euphie, and the death of Shirleys father, things that Charles won´t do… But its true that what Lelouch did to the Geass cult was in blind rage for Shirley´s dead and its beyond justification (i give out that crusader), and this makes me think that Lulu has gone past the line that makes the difference between him and his father..
    Im not going to state points about World History because my knowledge about it is, if not little a bit limited, I can make comparisons to my country revolutions, but youll need to know about that too… so Ill cheer?? for both of you?? nah!! Ill keep reading you both and see who has the last word, its interesting how a TV serie can make such good debates and move peoples beliefs…
    Im I twisted? because I like Lulu?

85. Halcyon July 18th, 2008 4:26 am

    @Crusader

    Look at this point arguing any more about Lulu is like arguing about religion it’s pointless.

    LOL My question isn’t about Lulu though. It’s about Cornelia!! Stop ducking me!! :p

    Also you have already been using CAPS LOCK long enough, I know cruise control for cool.

    I use capslock for emphasis

    Just because FDR was President does not mean that he was the victor at Midway.

    It does mean that FDR was the victor of the War though as, ultimately, it is the leader who is held accountable for winning or losing.

    You fail to understand that Hitler was able to do what he did because the German military was world class, the Wehrmacht was the harbinger of modern warfare.

    Again, context. You fail to understand that before Hitler’s rise to power Germany was a shell of its former self. After losing WWI and being subjected to insurmountable reparations, Germany was subject to abject poverty. It was Hitler who rebuilt Germany into a formidable fighting force.

    Without Hitler, Germany would not have had the infrastructure to become a world-class military threat. It was Hitler who was able to mobilize the Germans and give them a sense of patriotism after the Germans lost WWI.

    If Hitler had only the Italian Army he would not have conquered much at all. Hitler had the will to use a world class military for conquest. He was ambitious and he did surround himself with reliable cronies and sack any one who was a threat to him regardless of their expertise.

    LOL Doesn’t that mean that he was intelligent? I mean sacking threats and surrounding yourself with loyal allies doesn’t seem “stupid” to me at all. Does that sound stupid to you?

    Your definition of context is funny and strange the events I mentioned all involved Stalin, but sure… In 1944 Stalin was a biggest threat to global security because the German defeat was a forgone conclusion after Normandy, and Kursk.

    How was the USSR a Global Threat in 1944? You mentioned that Stalin was a greater threat because they had a nuclear arsenal. He didn’t. They only tested their first atomic bomb in 1949. So how are you determining that Stalin was the bigger threat? LOL

    In 1944 the Soviet Military machine was vastly larger than any other and its armies were already entrenching themselves into Eastern Europe. In 1945 they swept through Northern China in Operation August Storm and began setting up radical regimes one of which still haunts us today.

    From 1945 to 1948, the size of the Soviet Armed Forces drastically declined from 11.3 Million to 2.8 Million.

    Is the size of a land army the sole determinate of a country’s threat to the world? If that’s so, why isn’t China considered the biggest threat to world security? They currently have the largest standing army on the world.

    Your logic doesn’t pass muster. At the time, the USSR was still allied with the US and the UK. The Cold War didn’t even start until 1947. So to say that Stalin was a bigger threat in 1944 and 1945 is contradictory.

    So in effect Stalin was already threatening world security, but we just did not care enough about such places.

    We did not care about such places because they had no strategic value. Losing those countries didn’t mean a significant risk to the rest of the world. And compared to Hitler, Stalin was much less of a threat, as Hitler was attacking and conquering industrialized nations with significant value.

    Attacking third-world countries that have no economic, political or military influence on the rest of the world does not make you a World Security Threat. It’s when you start attacking countries that can have an economic, military, or political effect on the REST of the world, that it becomes a threat to world security.

    As you can see, the loss of those 3rd World Countries had no impact on the World. So how does that make it a “World Threat”? Is it a threat to those 3rd world countries if they are attacked? Yes. Is it a threat to the rest of the world? No.

    In China Stalin was supporting a Communist Insurgency under Mao Zedong and further destabilizing China. He was building spy rings across the globe, the Cambridge Five were recruited in the 1930s. In 1930 the Stalin was supporting extremist groups against their erstwhile coalition allies of the Spanish Republic. Stalin was committing terrorism abroad as he sent hitmen across the globe to kill critics like Trotsky in territories where he had no sovereignty.

    You fail to acknowledge that at the time Japan had already conquered and occupied Manchuria, deposed the current Chinese Emperor and installed a puppet figurehead to rule the rest of the country. China was already destabilized by the time the Russians started supporting Mao.

    But wait, I can already hear you say, those events happened before 1939 they are completely out of context, well then I suggest you look up the History of Poland and Finland. For you see Stalin waged two wars before joining the Allies. In Poland Stalin invaded his neighbor in League with Hitler. Soon after overrunning the Poles Stalin massacred those who posed a threat to Soviet Hegemony which included the usual gamut of the religious leaders, members of political parties, any one associated with the Polish Army, and any one who dared to speak up. In Finland he tried to make them a satellite state and annex more territory. Again this was during WWII so you see Stalin was a threat to global peace and stability. It’s just that people like you never heard or care about such places, Stalin was a threat, he was just adroit enough to threaten the places no one cared about. Back then all those places like Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Finland, Poland, and the Ukraine, were states no one really cared to do anything about. They were back then, what Africa is now. Shit happens, but we never talk of such things as often as other topics, nor do we really care enough to do much about it.

    That still has no bearing on your claim that Stalin was a bigger threat than Hitler.

    You said Stalin was a bigger threat because he had a nuclear arsenal. I already showed you that

    1. Stalin would’ve never had any fissible nuclear material to use for his atomic bomb test had Germany not been defeated.
    2. Stalin was dead by the time the Soviets acquired a usable nuclear weapon.

    Are you changing your position on WHY Stalin was a threat?

    Also you do not need a hydrogen bomb to become a nuclear power.

    You said he had a nuclear arsenal. There’s no evidence to support that. The Soviet Atomic Bomb Project didn’t even start its first test in 1949. The program was still in its testing phase. They did not obtain a usable weapon until after Stalin had already died.

    As I mentioned before, the Soviets did not discover domestic sources of Uranium until much later. All of the uranium obtained for their first test were taking from Germany’s Atomic Bomb Project.

    So if you compare Hitler(who had uranium and an atomic bomb research program) and Stalin (who had no sources of uranium and an atomic bomb project), Hitler was the bigger threat.

    Stalin essentially had a gun with no bullets. It wasn’t until after the Germans were defeated that Stalin stole Germany’s bullets.

    As you said the Soviets detonated a bomb in 1949 and since then Stalin did have a nuclear arsenal, a modest one, but he had one nonetheless to qualify as a nuclear power. India and Pakistan have only announced that they have fission bombs, but are considered nuclear powers despite the fact that the US and Russia hold 96% of all nuclear weapons.

    See above.

    The issue here isn’t whether or not Stalin was a threat, the Truman Doctrine already confirmed that, it’s whether Stalin was a greater threat to World Security than Hitler.

    He was not.

    Now, if you want to argue that after the fall of Hitler, the Soviet Union became a significant threat to world security, that might be debateable. But to claim that the USSR under the rule of Stalin was a greater threat to World Security than Germany under the rule of Hitler is just plain false.

    Stalin only lived 8 years more than Hitler. He would’nt have acquired Uranium if Hitler didn’t lose. He didn’t even test a nuclear bomb until 1949 (4 years before dying). The first hydrogen bomb test didn’t even occur until after he died. To say that Stalin had a nuclear arsenal (a mass of weapons) when only 1 nuclear bomb test had been conducted during the remainder of Stalin’s lifetime is just incorrect.

    The closest the Soviets became to becoming a comparable threat to World Security was in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis and that was nearly 10 years after Stalin had already died.

86. Crusader July 18th, 2008 12:08 pm

    @Halycon
    You forget that Hans Von Seeckt and the Reichswehr were already rebuilding the gore of Germany’s future military might, Hitler had nothing to do with the creation of new tactics, and the formulation of doctrine. You seem to hold that merely having technically advanced weapons is a guarantee of success it is not. In 1930 Italy had the most powerful army, but because they were poorly led and had poor doctrine they were humiliated during some of the most pivotal battles of the Spanish Civil War. Under Seeckt the Reichswehr was already training for the next war in the Soviet Union. Hence weapon specifications were already in the works well before Hitler came to power. Hitler had no responsibility for making the most important aspect of Germany war machine those 100,000 core that Seekct created which included Guderian, von Manstein, and Rommel. French Weapons in 1940 were on par or were better than the stuff the Germans had, it was superior doctrine formed well before Hitler came to power that allowed the Wehrmacht to sweep trough France and the Low Countries. Suffice to Say Hitler did not make his military form scratch, read your history. All of Europe had only one cyclotron of minimal capacity Hitler could not have made the kind of Hiroshima bomb fast enough even if he wanted to Heisenberg already was de-railing the project to the point that a nuclear weapon would not be ready for some time even if Speer wanted to go full tilt which he did not. Uranium alone is not sufficient for a bomb, a dirty bomb [perhaps but you need a cyclotron to make a fission bomb.

    You logic is odd so it’s okay to overrun a good number of Third World countries and not be a threat to global stability? You sir have the callousness I cannot begin to describe. This debate is pointless since you care about some places but not about others. I have made my statements and stand by them for you Hitler is the ultimate big bad you have no idea and never will understand what Stalin really was.

    The loss of Eastern Europe was keenly felt just because you have never met any one who had to flee their home land does not mean that they were unimportant and had no bearing on the rest of the world.

    Himmler and Goering eventually tried to sell Hitler out, but the Allies were not keen on taking them up. Some Loyalty eh? Albert Speer was the man most responsible for German’s military industry, not Hitler. I hope you read more history for it seems that you are forgetting some very big names.

    The Soviet demobilization was uncharacteristically fast, and the most important reason why Stalin wanted to reduce the size of the Red Army was that well all those formerly scarred and oppressed people now all had guns, tanks, and airplanes. Stalin never did trust the Red Army and as soon ans they were no longer needed disarmed them. Let’s not forget that Zhukov was viewed by Stalin as a threat and soon had Marshall Victory exiled to some remote post. You see it was a move more to protect Stalin form a mass mutiny than anything else.

    I was merely demonstrating that Stalin was more than just a single threat, but that no longer matters because you have declared it out of context because those countries do not matter. So long as you dismiss everything I have to say as out of context the point is moot.

    This is pointless you obliviously can turn a blind eye to Stalin like you can with Lulu. Congratulations you sir win an internet. Now I suggest you read up on your history since you don’t seem to have mastery of the subject matter in the slightest. Your lack of knowledge when it comes to the USSR and Stalin. Also please do read up on how an atom bomb is made for good measure. You focus merely on the political history and have no idea how many talented actors there were that made Germany powerful. Hitler you see is not the evil genius you make him out to be.

    I am utterly aghast at how you basically said that none of those countries mattered. I am through with this farce.

87. Halcyon July 18th, 2008 3:33 pm

    @Crusader

    Uranium alone is not sufficient for a bomb, a dirty bomb [perhaps but you need a cyclotron to make a fission bomb.

    My point was that, Russia did not even have Uranium to conduct a nuclear weapons test until they stole Germany’s supply after the war.

    You specifically said, Stalin was a bigger threat than Hitler because Russia had a nuclear arsenal. I already gave you sufficient historical evidence to prove that Russia did not have anything close to an “arsenal” within Stalin’s lifetime.

    You logic is odd so it’s okay to overrun a good number of Third World countries and not be a threat to global stability? You sir have the callousness I cannot begin to describe. This debate is pointless since you care about some places but not about others. I have made my statements and stand by them for you Hitler is the ultimate big bad you have no idea and never will understand what Stalin really was.

    You have not provided sufficient evidence to prove why Stalin was a bigger threat than Hitler. Nor have you clearly expressed what your criterion or basis for what that determination was.

    Hitler declared War on 4 out of 6 habitable continents (Europe, North America, Asia and Africa). That’s nearly 2/3rds of the world’s population. Unless you can come up with a convincing argument of how Stalin posed a GREATER threat to that same 2/3rds of the World (between 1947 and 1953) you’re fighting a losing battle.

    The USSR, as I’ve said before, only became a comparable threat to Germany AFTER Stalin had passed away.

    Present evidence to the contrary or yield your statement of position.

    And yes, overrunning a country (or multiple countries) which has/have no impact on the rest of the world’s economic, military or political resources does not constitute a threat to world security. A threat to the world means a, uh threat to the entire world, not just a subset or specific region of the world.

    You’ve yet to make the argument on how Stalin was a threat to the ENTIRE world as Hitler was. Not just tiny portions of it.

    The loss of Eastern Europe was keenly felt just because you have never met any one who had to flee their home land does not mean that they were unimportant and had no bearing on the rest of the world.

    Keenly felt by who? Clearly it wasn’t too keenly felt, as the rest of the allied powers were too concerned with rebuilding and reconstruction in the aftermath of WWII to openly oppose Stalin.

    And this is where we come back to my old friend Context. The British were economically and militarily devastated upon the conclusion of WWII and couldn’t even hold onto their own colonies. They were certainly not concerned with the fate of a few satellite countries which held no strategic value or usable resources.

    As morally opposed as you may be to the “weaker” countries being dominated by a stronger country, this does not mean that the stronger country constitutes a significant threat to the rest of the world.

    If that was the case, we’d be attacking China for holding Tibet hostage and trying to reclaim Taiwan as part of their territory.

    The Soviet demobilization was uncharacteristically fast, and the most important reason why Stalin wanted to reduce the size of the Red Army was that well all those formerly scarred and oppressed people now all had guns, tanks, and airplanes. Stalin never did trust the Red Army and as soon ans they were no longer needed disarmed them. Let’s not forget that Zhukov was viewed by Stalin as a threat and soon had Marshall Victory exiled to some remote post. You see it was a move more to protect Stalin form a mass mutiny than anything else.

    That still doesn’t address my point. You specifically said that Stalin had posed a “great threat to world security” because of the size of his army.

    I replied by showing you the size of his army had decreased drastically within a 3 year span. Now, if you’re turning around and saying “Stalin reduced his army because he was afraid of a big army he couldn’t control” how does that support your EARLIER statement that he was a larger threat than Hitler because of his army?

    It’s a self-defeating point.

    I was merely demonstrating that Stalin was more than just a single threat, but that no longer matters because you have declared it out of context because those countries do not matter. So long as you dismiss everything I have to say as out of context the point is moot.

    I’ve already addressed each and every one of your contentions of the magnitude of Stalin’s threat. Most of which you have ignored, or gone on tangents about.

    You haven’t even responded as to why CHINA which meets all of your previous criterion of (Largest Army in the World, Nuclear Arsenal, Communist) isn’t considered a threat to the world’s security?

    Again, you specifically said “Stalin was a threat because he had a nuclear arsenal and he had the world’s largest army”.

    Both points were proven false and you continue to fail to prove HOW Stalin is considered a larger threat to World Security than Hitler was (Let me again remind you that Stalin died in 1953, right after the conclusion of the Korean War in which the USSR halted their advance at the 38th parallel per their post-war agreement with the Americans).

    Now, I can’t for the live of me find any historian, alive or dead, who would agree with you that Stalin was much more of a threat than Hitler.

    If you’re going to make that claim, you’re going to have to back it up. History appears to agree with me, thus far.

    This is pointless you obliviously can turn a blind eye to Stalin like you can with Lulu.

    It’s not about “turning a blind eye”. It’s about recognizing which is the greater threat. Just like the Allied Powers recognized Hitler was a greater threat than Stalin (Which is why even though he killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS during his Purge, no Allied Power EVER EVER EVER EVER opposed him).

    I’m not saying Stalin wasn’t a threat. I’m saying, Hitler was the larger threat which needed to be dealt with. Which is why the US and UK allied with Stalin, against Hitler.

    Similarly how Charles vi Britannia is the larger threat than Lelouch, which is why all of his former enemies (Rolo, Orange-kun, Viletta, and soon to be your beloved Cornelia-hime) are joining Lelouch in his crusade to end Charles’ tyranny.

    Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, you have lost this point.

    Congratulations you sir win an internet.

    This was evident before we engaged in this debate

    Now I suggest you read up on your history since you don’t seem to have mastery of the subject matter in the slightest.

    I never claimed to have a “mastery” on history. I merely provided evidence to counter your claims on how Stalin was a larger threat than Hitler.

    You’ve yet to produce one sound logical argument to refute that which I have previously provided to you.

    Your lack of knowledge when it comes to the USSR and Stalin.

    This is rather funny

    Also please do read up on how an atom bomb is made for good measure.

    LOL I know it can’t be made without fissible material and that Stalin did not have any domestic sources of fissible material. That is more than enough knowledge to counter your baseless claims of a “nuclear arsenal”.

    You focus merely on the political history and have no idea how many talented actors there were that made Germany powerful.

    No, I focus on military history also but the argument here isn’t “what made Germany powerful”. The argument here is “Why Stalin is more of a threat than Hitler”.

    Remember my earlier comment about unrelated tangents? This is a prime example of you going away from the main topic into something completely irrelevant to your argument.

    Hitler you see is not the evil genius you make him out to be.

    Where did I say he was an “evil genius”? I said he was intelligent. I didn’t say he was a German Stephen Hawking or anything close to that. YOU’RE the one who called him “stupid” because he wasn’t militarily competent. There’s more to intelligence than military aptitude.

    I am utterly aghast at how you basically said that none of those countries mattered. I am through with this farce.

    Prove how the loss of any of those countries significantly affected the rest of the world.

    I dare you to.

88. Crusader July 18th, 2008 6:26 pm

    @Halcyon
    Look your remark about China was a tangent I stayed within what Stalin was doing. Fair enough China is a destabilizing influence with their arms sales to such states as Sudan and other similar regimes. Their undisclosed and often questioned military budget has been the concern of all of her neighbors, the EU, NATO, and the US. China did go to war with Vietnam and India at one point. China is also adamant about one day regaining Formosa by force if necessary. In the 1960s China was supporting revolts in Africa, that helped make that continent what it is today, a place of nearly endless conflict. Nevertheless I guess these activities don’t really count since they do not affect the required 2/3s of the world to be considered a threat to the world.

    As for the loss of Eastern Europe the influx of people who left there did contribute a cultural gain for the countries which gave them refuge. Israel did get a good number of Eastern European Jews which added significantly to their man power so that they could better fight off their Arab neighbors. Many former Soviet satellite states still remember the Soviet occupation and are at times at odds with Russia. Many of those states ave joined or are trying to join NATO and that has caused a few problems with Russia as well.

    Hitler declared war on most of the world by going against the British Empire and the USSR. However he never did have any troops in North America, thus his actual threat to North America was minimal. Germany had a few units of Luftwaffe in the Middle East but they were quickly expelled once the Vichy French there were overwhelmed. The caveat here is whether we can consider the USSR to be part of Asia or part of Europe, because other than that token to hold Hitler never presented a significant threat to the Far East, though they had a few U-Boats and surface ships, all of which were destroyed one after the other. More over Hitler declared war on the most populous nation on Earth so yes he presented a threat to a lot of people just by going to war with the USSR. So yes Hitler was a threat to most of the world’s population by being hostile to Russia alone. Hitler was also in conflict with the greatest colonial power so by declaring war on two regimes Hitler was technically at war with most of the world even if he never posed a significant threat to places like Australia. I guess you want to say that a declaration of war alone is sufficient threat, fair enough, but from my view a purely military view Hitler was not a threat to 2/3s of the world.

    Hitler never needed to declare war on the US his entire General Staff thought that he was nuts, but Hitler did need to show Japan that it was a good ally and did so in the vain hope that the Japanese would attack the Soviet Union. After being slapped silly by Zhukov in Mongolia scant years before the Japanese Army was unwilling to go to war. Up until the the US had no reason to declare war on Germany and had Hitler done nothing after Pearl Harbor the US would have been at war with Japan only. It was Hitler’s declaration of war that brought the US in. Britain, and the US only became Allies of the Soviets after the invasion which made them Allies of Convenience. Declaring war on the US and the USSR before he finished his business with the British was not a smart move by and stretch of the imagination, hence he was “stupid” for doing so.

    Hitler also had a propensity to reject everything remotely Jewish hence all the people who could have helped him build a atom bomb had already left because they were Jewish leaving him with a small remnant of physicists who were reluctant to help him build a bomb. Again by kicking out some seriously talented physicists because of they were Jews, does not constitute “intelligence.” Hitler also had a fondness for big huge and impractical weapons such as the Ratte and Maus super heavy tanks, only Albert Speer was able to stop such wasteful projects from making the situation on the front any worse than it already was. Again building super heavy tanks that the Heer never asked for was not very “intelligent.”

    The Western Allies were wary of Stalin all the governments in exile that held de jure sovereignty east of the Rhine were sidelined once it because clear that if the US and Britain were to win the war thrust upon them they would have to keep the USSR on their side. Sikorski leader of the Poles in exile was not liked by Stalin thus relations between the two remained soured. The West looked the other way when the Soviets allowed the Home Army to be slaughtered. We never really trusted Stalin, but necessity dictated that we keep him as our erstwhile ally, and they never really trusted us. The Soviets refused to be a team player and do anything about Japan until we gave them concessions at the expense of Nationalist China. We had a common cause but they were a threat once it became clear in 1944 what kind of post war world Stalin was planning. The US and the UK basically sold out the Eastern European Governments in Exile at the end of the war. At the time it was decide that conflict with the Soviet Union was untenable, and after 1944 we were already leering at one another suspiciously.

    I won’t comment on your hierarchy of worthwhile countries but honestly you are sounding kind of arrogant and somewhat racist declaring them as people and nations that have no significance. Fair enough I suppose if all that matters to you are certain nations and not others then I guess the USSR was never a threat to the part of the world you care about. I concede Stalin was never a threat to the part of the world you deem important.

    Well sorry for wasting your time.

89. Halcyon July 18th, 2008 7:18 pm

    @Crusader

    Look your remark about China was a tangent I stayed within what Stalin was doing.

    It’s not a tangent. China is VERY similar to the criterion you listed for Stalinist Russia. It has all the same elements you already defined for why you considered Stalinist Russia a threat, and yet no one in the world considers China to be a threat to world security. Why is that?

    In the 1960s China was supporting revolts in Africa, that helped make that continent what it is today, a place of nearly endless conflict. Nevertheless I guess these activities don’t really count since they do not affect the required 2/3s of the world to be considered a threat to the world.

    These activities don’t count because NO ONE CONSIDERS CHINA TO BE A THREAT TO WORLD SECURITY.

    I defy you to provide one example, in the form of a UN Declaration, or other comparable document which illustrates how China is a threat to international security.

    The examples you listed, while admirable, still do not address the central issue of “If China shares the same ideological, military and technological capability of Stalinist Russia, why are they then not considered a threat to world security by your previously established criterion?”.

    You’re going outside the bounds of the argument.

    As for the loss of Eastern Europe the influx of people who left there did contribute a cultural gain for the countries which gave them refuge. Israel did get a good number of Eastern European Jews which added significantly to their man power so that they could better fight off their Arab neighbors. Many former Soviet satellite states still remember the Soviet occupation and are at times at odds with Russia. Many of those states ave joined or are trying to join NATO and that has caused a few problems with Russia as well.

    This does nothing to illustrate how within the specified time frame (1947 – 1953) , how the loss of these countries affected the WORLD. The only argument you might possibly have is that it affected the population of Israel.

    But that still doesn’t have a significant impact on the rest of the world. These examples that you’re citing have a limited REGIONAL impact, not a GLOBAL one.

    Hitler declared war on most of the world by going against the British Empire and the USSR. However he never did have any troops in North America, thus his actual threat to North America was minimal.

    That doesn’t negate the fact that Hitler did declare War on the United States on December 11, 1941. Declaring War on a country means the threat is minimal because he didn’t have troops in North America? I believe, during this time period, Germany was still attacking US ships with submarines and air strikes.

    Germany might not have been a large threat to the US but there were still a threat, nonetheless.
    Hitler was also in conflict with the greatest colonial power so by declaring war on two regimes Hitler was technically at war with most of the world even if he never posed a significant threat to places like Australia. I guess you want to say that a declaration of war alone is sufficient threat, fair enough, but from my view a purely military view Hitler was not a threat to 2/3s of the world.

    That’s fair enough. I can agree that Hitler may not have had the military infrastructure to PERSONALLY attack 2/3rds of the world, but through his alliances with Japan and Italy, he certainly did pose a significant threat to most of the world’s populated areas.

    Hitler never needed to declare war on the US his entire General Staff thought that he was nuts, but Hitler did need to show Japan that it was a good ally and did so in the vain hope that the Japanese would attack the Soviet Union. After being slapped silly by Zhukov in Mongolia scant years before the Japanese Army was unwilling to go to war. Up until the the US had no reason to declare war on Germany and had Hitler done nothing after Pearl Harbor the US would have been at war with Japan only.

    FDR was supporting the UK by supplying them with weapons. Everybody and their grandmother knows FDR was itching to get involved in WWII. What prevented him from getting involved sooner was the isolationist view that Congress had at the time. That and the overwhelming disapproval the public had for going to war.
    For FDR, Pearl Harbor was like a gift from god because it finally gave him an excuse to actively participate in the war.

    For further evidence, you need only look at Roosevelt’s “Arsenal of Democracy” radio transmissions delivered on December 29, 1940. A full year before the Pearl Harbor incident. There’s also Roosevelt’s “Four Freedoms” speech delivered on Jan of 1941.

    Roosevelt was already indirectly involved in the War by providing the Allied Powers with “all aid short of war”. See: Churchill’s book “The Grand Alliance” written in 1977 for further proof.

    It was Hitler’s declaration of war that brought the US in.

    This is patently false as I’ve already described above.

    Britain, and the US only became Allies of the Soviets after the invasion which made them Allies of Convenience.

    That doesn’t negate the fact that Britain and the US saw Hitler as a greater threat than Hitler was.

    Declaring war on the US and the USSR before he finished his business with the British was not a smart move by and stretch of the imagination, hence he was “stupid” for doing so.

    He really had no choice but to declare war on the US. What was the alternative? Allow Japan to lose the war against the US and thus deprive him of a foothold in the Pacific? Hitler tried his best to avoid open-war against the Americans until the Japanese went and jumped the gun. The plan was initially to secure Europe and ally with Russia to dominate the Western Hemisphere. Russia was noncommittal to the Germans and grew increasingly nervous over the Germans constant incursions into Eastern Europe.

    He may have done something militarily stupid, but that by no means makes him a stupid person. It makes him a politican, not a military tactician.

    Hitler also had a propensity to reject everything remotely Jewish hence all the people who could have helped him build a atom bomb had already left because they were Jewish leaving him with a small remnant of physicists who were reluctant to help him build a bomb. Again by kicking out some seriously talented physicists because of they were Jews, does not constitute “intelligence.” Hitler also had a fondness for big huge and impractical weapons such as the Ratte and Maus super heavy tanks, only Albert Speer was able to stop such wasteful projects from making the situation on the front any worse than it already was. Again building super heavy tanks that the Heer never asked for was not very “intelligent.”

    The reason the atomic bomb was never built wasn’t because of a lack of scientists. It was because it was determined (Wrongly) that the nuclear energy project would not make a “decisive contribution to ending the war effort” in the near-term and the army relinquished control of the program in 1942.

    The Western Allies were wary of Stalin all the governments in exile that held de jure sovereignty east of the Rhine were sidelined once it because clear that if the US and Britain were to win the war thrust upon them they would have to keep the USSR on their side. Sikorski leader of the Poles in exile was not liked by Stalin thus relations between the two remained soured. The West looked the other way when the Soviets allowed the Home Army to be slaughtered. We never really trusted Stalin, but necessity dictated that we keep him as our erstwhile ally, and they never really trusted us. The Soviets refused to be a team player and do anything about Japan until we gave them concessions at the expense of Nationalist China. We had a common cause but they were a threat once it became clear in 1944 what kind of post war world Stalin was planning. The US and the UK basically sold out the Eastern European Governments in Exile at the end of the war. At the time it was decide that conflict with the Soviet Union was untenable, and after 1944 we were already leering at one another suspiciously.

    This makes sense ^^

    But you’re still not explaining how you came to the conclusion that Stalin was a greater threat than Hitler =P

    I won’t comment on your hierarchy of worthwhile countries but honestly you are sounding kind of arrogant and somewhat racist declaring them as people and nations that have no significance.

    I’m not saying they have “no significance”. What I have said is that they do not hold any strategic value. That their existence or political status does not have a significant impact on the rest of the world.

    If you can provide evidence to how the world is dependent on their existence or safety for international security, I’ll be happy to recant my prior determination.

    Fair enough I suppose if all that matters to you are certain nations and not others then I guess the USSR was never a threat to the part of the world you care about. I concede Stalin was never a threat to the part of the world you deem important.

    Stalin was never a threat to the world, because the -newly created- United Nations (remember that new international government authority that’s supposed to mediate conflicts between nations?) did not consider them a threat to the world.

    What you illustrated, with your examples, was that Stalin was a threat to parts of the world. Not the entire world, or even the majority of the world but small pockets of barely recognized regions and countries (MIND YOU NOW, it’s not ME that barely recognizes them but the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY as a whole). Considering that he doesn’t pass that critical test, it’s fairly impossible to compare him to Hitler in terms of how much of a threat he posed to international security.

    What WAS considered a threat was the spread of Communism as a political ideology, not Stalin in specific. Stalin was just the public face of Communism (and only up until 1953, which doesn’t even really cover the “Red Scare” of McCarthyism that followed after Stalin’s death).

    The issue here was never whether Stalin was a threat, but whether he could be considered a GREATER threat to International Security than Hitler did.

    You provided no basis to support that determination.

    Well sorry for wasting your time.

    It wasn’t a waste for me. I enjoyed myself. It was rather entertaining. I’m sure Calawain enjoys the traffic this debate has generated to his Geass post

    I can see why you think Stalin IS a threat, but you were unable to articulate WHAT made Stalin a greater international threat than Hitler. Hitler, by all accounts, is considered one of the greatest threats in all of History. It’s a tall order to top the most reviled human being in all of history.

90. Crusader July 18th, 2008 7:54 pm

    @Halcyon
    Oh I see you want UN resolutions… well I don’t care much for the UN never really thought of them as anything more than a toothless institution that really just gives words instead of actions. Well wow I see, well then there is no point in arguing because the UN will never condemn China so long as the CCP has a spot on the security council (the only part that has some significance given how they are deadlocked most of the time). Stalin was never declared a threat by the UN because well he could veto such a measure. Same reason why China will never be a threat in you view because they can veto such a measure or any resolution leveled against them. Touche with the UN there is never an official threat from anything else other than a international pariah. Again if the UN is the ruling authority then I can’t possibly argue that there is ever a threat to world security from any of the Big Five. Again had I known that UN resolutions and League of Nations debates were the basis of threat assessment I would have conceded the point earlier. Ah well good for you if you believe in the UN, I stopped believing in them long ago…

    Italy and Japan were of little use to Germany as allies. Italy especially given how the Soviets preferred to smash them to break through German lines. Japan never did help Germany, the Eastern Front was where their aid was needed most and Japan was at peace with the USSR until 1945.

91. d July 18th, 2008 8:48 pm

    @Crusader

    So many of your paragraphs start with “Look,” haha.

92. Halcyon July 19th, 2008 3:41 am

    @Crusader

    Oh I see you want UN resolutions… well I don’t care much for the UN never really thought of them as anything more than a toothless institution that really just gives words instead of actions. Well wow I see, well then there is no point in arguing because the UN will never condemn China so long as the CCP has a spot on the security council (the only part that has some significance given how they are deadlocked most of the time). Stalin was never declared a threat by the UN because well he could veto such a measure. Same reason why China will never be a threat in you view because they can veto such a measure or any resolution leveled against them.

    I specifically added “Or some other document”, it doesn’t have to be a UN Resolution, but since the UN was created to mediate international conflicts they would be the authority on whether or not a country could be considered a threat to international security. While a UN declaration would be PREFERRED, it is not MANDATORY. Other sources are acceptable also.

    Touche with the UN there is never an official threat from anything else other than a international pariah. Again if the UN is the ruling authority then I can’t possibly argue that there is ever a threat to world security from any of the Big Five. Again had I known that UN resolutions and League of Nations debates were the basis of threat assessment I would have conceded the point earlier. Ah well good for you if you believe in the UN, I stopped believing in them long ago…

    The basis of threat assessment is not the UN, as the UN was not created until after Germany lost the UN. The basis of threat assessment is action by an international coalition to combat a significant threat to security. There was no such coalition or alliance concerned with the threat of Stalin.

    Was Communism viewed as a threat to international security? Yes. Was Stalin, himself, viewed as a threat to international security? No. There’s no evidence to support that argument.

    Italy and Japan were of little use to Germany as allies. Italy especially given how the Soviets preferred to smash them to break through German lines. Japan never did help Germany, the Eastern Front was where their aid was needed most and Japan was at peace with the USSR until 1945.

    That doesn’t negate the fact that Germany, through its alliances, posed a significant threat to 2/3rds of the World’s population!

93. Crusader July 19th, 2008 6:16 am

    @Halcyon
    Oh mercy! Mercy! I give up I can’t argue with your over emphasis on the UN and your desire for an international a memo saying Stalin was a threat. Oh yeah UN “resolution preferred,” that’s great. Well may your UN bring the peace and stability you desire for the world that matters for many years.

    Yes Hitler mad alliances therefore he must have been pulling the strings…just like how Churchill was pulling FDR’s and Uncle Joes’s. Honestly man the Axis was about as hollow an alliance as you can get Germany and Japan never really did much for each other and the Italians were the weakest link in the chain having defected in 1943. As if Hitler was giving orders to the Japanese and Italians, ah… You sir have made my day, memos and all.

94. Halcyon July 19th, 2008 7:08 am

    @Crusader
    Oh mercy! Mercy! I give up I can’t argue with your over emphasis on the UN and your desire for an international a memo saying Stalin was a threat. Oh yeah UN “resolution preferred,” that’s great. Well may your UN bring the peace and stability you desire for the world that matters for many years.

    LOL. I’m saying you have FAILED to provide evidence that Stalin was considered a threat to international security. All you have shown, was that Stalin was a threat to MINOR regions whose losses did not have significant impact on the rest of the world.

    Now, unless you can refute that, you sir, have lost.

    Yes Hitler mad alliances therefore he must have been pulling the strings…just like how Churchill was pulling FDR’s and Uncle Joes’s. Honestly man the Axis was about as hollow an alliance as you can get Germany and Japan never really did much for each other and the Italians were the weakest link in the chain having defected in 1943. As if Hitler was giving orders to the Japanese and Italians, ah… You sir have made my day, memos and all.

    Doesn’t matter if he was pulling the strings or if the axis was hollow.

    The point is, (Which you continue to miss) that Hitler was considered (and is still considered by nearly every Historian) a greater threat to the world than Stalin.

    Unless you can prove otherwise, you sir, have lost.

    Now it might be your “opinion” that Stalin was a bigger threat to the world, but that is not supported by historical facts. Hitler is, was, and always will be considered the larger threat not just by me, but by the majority of the world at large.

95. Crusader July 19th, 2008 6:36 pm

    Here’s your memo.

96. Rayndog July 19th, 2008 7:48 pm

    dawm i came to this blog by accident cause my ussual code geass blog author (~ Shirukii ~)

    has been lazy as of the asshat episode

    nice job people

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