Comments on: Macross Frontier 07: Koning Monster! http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/ THAT blog of various wonders! Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:30:39 +0800 hourly 1 By: Haesslich http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-224558 Haesslich Mon, 26 May 2008 19:13:11 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-224558 Crusader: It's more that, after a certain point, throwing large mobs of poorly-armed soldiers at an enemy doesn't work that well... so you end up spending the money to train and equip them properly, since (in cold, hard economic terms) it's much cheaper to do it that way than to lose the soldier and the cheap gun they were carrying while probably failing to accomplish the objective. This way, you've lost the soldier, his or her equipment, the (minimal) training costs associated with them, the cost of transporting them to the place of battle, as well as any munitions, fuel, and other necessities expended to keep the soldier going up until their time of death. That's why China's been upgrading its weapons tech for the past ten, fifteen years instead of following through with the old Soviet model of 'build a cheap thousand tanks and throw them all at the enemy' method. Especially if the other side can throw out WMDs or other weapons which can do massive damage on a wide scale, which negates the whole 'mass = quality' argument. Sure, if you're going up against one guy with a machine-gun with a few hundred thousand people carrying single-action rifles the latter will eventually win out due to their being able to absorb all the damage that the former will do until the survivors can take the guy down... but if the enemy can throw out greater numbers (as the Zentradi could) or else massive, group-clearing damage (that Vajra battleship seems to be able to do the same thing for capital ships, and has enough anti-AAS fire to hold off a mass attack by fighters), then large numbers alone aren't the solution. One only has to look at World War One to see how mass charges could be negated by area-denial as well as mass artillery tactics (which were in turn area-denial, especially when you can air-deploy mines or bomblets). Numbers, combined with the ability to replenish them quickly may be A solution (remembering that it takes about 13-16 years to get a decent physical specimen from conception to being able to carry a weapon if you're not picky about how young they are, combined with enough cognitive ability to carry out a plan)... but if you have technology, proper training, AND numbers, you're likely to be a lot more successful. This also doesn't take into account the fact that those soldiers, after being demobilized and discharged, are useful in terms of generating wealth in various fields, even if they're only operating machines on an assembly line somewhere... or farming, or whatever. Massive casualties doesn't just impact military operations, but civilian ones as well - more so in industral or post-industrial societies than agrarian ones (which don't usually have the means to support an army anyways, lacking the ability to mass-produce in quantity the supplies that soldiers need, as well as the excess resources to support a standing army whose members aren't actively farming or otherwise harvesting or creating resources to support themselves). Even 'economic survival by conquest' has its limits... since eventually, you run out of people ot conquer, or those populations you've conquered get 'tapped out'. Crusader: It’s more that, after a certain point, throwing large mobs of poorly-armed soldiers at an enemy doesn’t work that well… so you end up spending the money to train and equip them properly, since (in cold, hard economic terms) it’s much cheaper to do it that way than to lose the soldier and the cheap gun they were carrying while probably failing to accomplish the objective. This way, you’ve lost the soldier, his or her equipment, the (minimal) training costs associated with them, the cost of transporting them to the place of battle, as well as any munitions, fuel, and other necessities expended to keep the soldier going up until their time of death.

That’s why China’s been upgrading its weapons tech for the past ten, fifteen years instead of following through with the old Soviet model of ‘build a cheap thousand tanks and throw them all at the enemy’ method. Especially if the other side can throw out WMDs or other weapons which can do massive damage on a wide scale, which negates the whole ‘mass = quality’ argument. Sure, if you’re going up against one guy with a machine-gun with a few hundred thousand people carrying single-action rifles the latter will eventually win out due to their being able to absorb all the damage that the former will do until the survivors can take the guy down… but if the enemy can throw out greater numbers (as the Zentradi could) or else massive, group-clearing damage (that Vajra battleship seems to be able to do the same thing for capital ships, and has enough anti-AAS fire to hold off a mass attack by fighters), then large numbers alone aren’t the solution. One only has to look at World War One to see how mass charges could be negated by area-denial as well as mass artillery tactics (which were in turn area-denial, especially when you can air-deploy mines or bomblets).

Numbers, combined with the ability to replenish them quickly may be A solution (remembering that it takes about 13-16 years to get a decent physical specimen from conception to being able to carry a weapon if you’re not picky about how young they are, combined with enough cognitive ability to carry out a plan)… but if you have technology, proper training, AND numbers, you’re likely to be a lot more successful.

This also doesn’t take into account the fact that those soldiers, after being demobilized and discharged, are useful in terms of generating wealth in various fields, even if they’re only operating machines on an assembly line somewhere… or farming, or whatever. Massive casualties doesn’t just impact military operations, but civilian ones as well – more so in industral or post-industrial societies than agrarian ones (which don’t usually have the means to support an army anyways, lacking the ability to mass-produce in quantity the supplies that soldiers need, as well as the excess resources to support a standing army whose members aren’t actively farming or otherwise harvesting or creating resources to support themselves). Even ‘economic survival by conquest’ has its limits… since eventually, you run out of people ot conquer, or those populations you’ve conquered get ‘tapped out’.

]]> By: Crusader http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-224081 Crusader Sun, 25 May 2008 07:23:13 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-224081 @Myssa Rei I think that Macross Quarter while tiny is more along the lines of an a assault carrier. Useful in missions that do not warrant the use of a full fleet carrier, but fills a support role just as nicely. While I hesitate to give it the name of battle cruiser it almost fills the role of independent ship that can operate on its own with little or no escort, though for it to use its most destructive weapon it has to lose its launch capabilities. Size does not matter, and it does fit in with the more combined arms ethos that this series is giving. Macross Quarter may be powerful but she still needs supporting elements. Keep in mind that it was not one fleet carrier that brought the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere crumbling down in a few bloody years but it was the 3rd Fleet under Halsey and Spruance of 8 Fleet Carriers, 8 Light Carriers, 18 Escort Carriers, 12 Battleships, 24 Cruisers, 141 Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts, Loads of PT boats and Subs that provided the cudgel batter the Japanese Combined Fleet to the bottom of the Pacific. Even if Macross Quarter is not destroying entrie fleets by itself it can still be the pride of the fleet. ;) @Haesslich Oh we waste plenty of ammo teaching people how to shoot and lob grenades in live shoots. SMS is more along the lines of modern Western Militaries in that capital intensive warfare is acceptable as the labor pool is decidedly small and constitutes a precious resource and unlike beans and bullets quotas for recruitment are quite variable. If we wanted to do things on the cheap we can have your average Soviet Conscript lob potatoes instead as the Commissar reminds him how those potatoes are worth more than the conscript... ;) Yeah Loli-Klien is competing with Ranka, but as All-Meltran Klein she is in a league of her own. @Shin You know watching this episode made me want to convert my artillery miniatures to resemble the Konig Monster... Ah mechwarrior tell me did you ever get one of them battlepods? :P @Ricaryx Ranka will come into her own. Sheryl's star will not last forever, that is why she has opted for pilot training... :) Still the adversity will make Ranka all the more stronger and hopefully more humble when she achieves stardom. @blissmo Patience, my friend Ranka will have her day. Still just sit back and enjoy the fire works. Besides don't you wish you had a Konig Monster of your own? ;) @Myssa Rei
I think that Macross Quarter while tiny is more along the lines of an a assault carrier. Useful in missions that do not warrant the use of a full fleet carrier, but fills a support role just as nicely. While I hesitate to give it the name of battle cruiser it almost fills the role of independent ship that can operate on its own with little or no escort, though for it to use its most destructive weapon it has to lose its launch capabilities. Size does not matter, and it does fit in with the more combined arms ethos that this series is giving. Macross Quarter may be powerful but she still needs supporting elements. Keep in mind that it was not one fleet carrier that brought the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere crumbling down in a few bloody years but it was the 3rd Fleet under Halsey and Spruance of 8 Fleet Carriers, 8 Light Carriers, 18 Escort Carriers, 12 Battleships, 24 Cruisers, 141 Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts, Loads of PT boats and Subs that provided the cudgel batter the Japanese Combined Fleet to the bottom of the Pacific. Even if Macross Quarter is not destroying entrie fleets by itself it can still be the pride of the fleet. ;)

@Haesslich
Oh we waste plenty of ammo teaching people how to shoot and lob grenades in live shoots. SMS is more along the lines of modern Western Militaries in that capital intensive warfare is acceptable as the labor pool is decidedly small and constitutes a precious resource and unlike beans and bullets quotas for recruitment are quite variable.

If we wanted to do things on the cheap we can have your average Soviet Conscript lob potatoes instead as the Commissar reminds him how those potatoes are worth more than the conscript… ;)

Yeah Loli-Klien is competing with Ranka, but as All-Meltran Klein she is in a league of her own.

@Shin
You know watching this episode made me want to convert my artillery miniatures to resemble the Konig Monster…

Ah mechwarrior tell me did you ever get one of them battlepods? :P

@Ricaryx
Ranka will come into her own. Sheryl’s star will not last forever, that is why she has opted for pilot training… :)

Still the adversity will make Ranka all the more stronger and hopefully more humble when she achieves stardom.

@blissmo
Patience, my friend Ranka will have her day. Still just sit back and enjoy the fire works. Besides don’t you wish you had a Konig Monster of your own? ;)

]]> By: blissmo http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223991 blissmo Sat, 24 May 2008 23:33:25 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223991 I did not really enjoy this episode at all .... I did not really enjoy this episode at all ….

]]> By: Ricaryx http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223954 Ricaryx Sat, 24 May 2008 19:52:02 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223954 The only good thing that happened here to me are Brera and his harmonica. Okay, maybe the space opera too...but that's it. Seriously, when are they going to stop exploiting Sheryl's skin. I feel like 60% of Sheryl's purpose in this show is fanservice. Make that 70%. @Shirukii- I heard in episode 10...SPOILER!!rankawillbeattackedbyvajra!!SPOILER! But I think it's going to be a good episode. =/ After episode 8, I'm starting to get sick of Sheryl's uber screentime =_= The only good thing that happened here to me are Brera and his harmonica. Okay, maybe the space opera too…but that’s it. Seriously, when are they going to stop exploiting Sheryl’s skin. I feel like 60% of Sheryl’s purpose in this show is fanservice. Make that 70%.

@Shirukii- I heard in episode 10…SPOILER!!rankawillbeattackedbyvajra!!SPOILER! But I think it’s going to be a good episode. =/ After episode 8, I’m starting to get sick of Sheryl’s uber screentime =_=

]]> By: Shin http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223859 Shin Sat, 24 May 2008 12:50:46 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223859 Macross Quarter was cool, but it was the Konig Monster that really caught my attention, as it reminded me of the times when I used to play Mechwarrior. Macross Quarter was cool, but it was the Konig Monster that really caught my attention, as it reminded me of the times when I used to play Mechwarrior.

]]> By: Haesslich http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223632 Haesslich Fri, 23 May 2008 23:17:55 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223632 Crusader: Generally, as you've pointed out, training costs can run into the hundreds of thousands, if not millions (factoring in equipment, the pay of the trainers, etc) and losing a pilot or his/her machine (which itself is worth millions too, probably) is likely to be more of a concern than spending a similar amount on munitions - but getting a good return on the latter in the process. Ozma's proof of this - look at how he kept the Armored VF-25 moving well enough that Alto, in the supposedly faster and more maneuverable Super configuration was having a hard time keeping up. Still, we need more Klein-sama in all forms, although I think I like the big, oneesama form more than her chibi-form. Crusader: Generally, as you’ve pointed out, training costs can run into the hundreds of thousands, if not millions (factoring in equipment, the pay of the trainers, etc) and losing a pilot or his/her machine (which itself is worth millions too, probably) is likely to be more of a concern than spending a similar amount on munitions – but getting a good return on the latter in the process. Ozma’s proof of this – look at how he kept the Armored VF-25 moving well enough that Alto, in the supposedly faster and more maneuverable Super configuration was having a hard time keeping up.

Still, we need more Klein-sama in all forms, although I think I like the big, oneesama form more than her chibi-form.

]]> By: Myssa Rei http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223554 Myssa Rei Fri, 23 May 2008 20:42:51 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223554 *facepalms* Well duh, it just occured to me that it's probably the reason why the SMS flagship is called the Macross Quarter -- since it's around quarter the size of your average Macross/Megaroad-class warship. *facepalms* Well duh, it just occured to me that it’s probably the reason why the SMS flagship is called the Macross Quarter — since it’s around quarter the size of your average Macross/Megaroad-class warship.

]]> By: Myssa Rei http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223459 Myssa Rei Fri, 23 May 2008 17:11:53 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223459 I have to say, the space battle in this episode was great. Not only did we see just how much of an expert flier Ozma was (as Alto noted, he could execute those acrobatic maneuvers on his valkyrie despite its armored configuration), we also see the Koenig Monster in action, and does it pack a punch. The only (slight) disappointment I had with the sequence was the fact that, well, the Macross Quarter seems comparatively tiny when compared with say, oh, Battle 7 (at 400 meters or so, it's barely larger than some of the capital ships in the old UC Gundam series, whereas the Battle series neared a kilometer in length). The Macross cannon it used was also a little underwhelming, reminding me more of the Synchro cannons used in the Children of the Shadows movie (which I just recently acquired a copy of). I have to say, the space battle in this episode was great. Not only did we see just how much of an expert flier Ozma was (as Alto noted, he could execute those acrobatic maneuvers on his valkyrie despite its armored configuration), we also see the Koenig Monster in action, and does it pack a punch. The only (slight) disappointment I had with the sequence was the fact that, well, the Macross Quarter seems comparatively tiny when compared with say, oh, Battle 7 (at 400 meters or so, it’s barely larger than some of the capital ships in the old UC Gundam series, whereas the Battle series neared a kilometer in length). The Macross cannon it used was also a little underwhelming, reminding me more of the Synchro cannons used in the Children of the Shadows movie (which I just recently acquired a copy of).

]]> By: AzN Clan http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223135 AzN Clan Fri, 23 May 2008 02:55:36 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223135 wow thats awesome the latest episode... we should make wallpapers on Macross Frontier =D check out our wallpapers at www.aznwallpaper.com wow thats awesome the latest episode… we should make wallpapers on Macross Frontier =D check out our wallpapers at http://www.aznwallpaper.com

]]> By: Crusader http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223129 Crusader Fri, 23 May 2008 02:48:21 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223129 @Haesslich I savored the moment when Macross Frontier looks as it should. I sewar this time around Alto-hime in helmet looked very passable as a girl this time, more so than before. Machines and pilots represent a greater investment in terms of money and time. Ammunition is much easier to manufacture and can be produced in quantity while every VF-25 represents a bigger expenditure in man hours. I think that at least having a more lovely Klein-sama was a good thing even if her on screen time was limited, though that shall change in ep 9... @Luke If Ozama is in a triangle of his own then he better move quickly before his time runs out... @Setsuna-san Ep eight looks like another budget ep I just hope that it will be good enough despite that. No doubt Macross Quarter will be having a long vacation between duking it out in space, though it does get the blood pumping. :) @Haesslich
I savored the moment when Macross Frontier looks as it should. I sewar this time around Alto-hime in helmet looked very passable as a girl this time, more so than before. Machines and pilots represent a greater investment in terms of money and time. Ammunition is much easier to manufacture and can be produced in quantity while every VF-25 represents a bigger expenditure in man hours.

I think that at least having a more lovely Klein-sama was a good thing even if her on screen time was limited, though that shall change in ep 9…

@Luke
If Ozama is in a triangle of his own then he better move quickly before his time runs out…

@Setsuna-san
Ep eight looks like another budget ep I just hope that it will be good enough despite that.

No doubt Macross Quarter will be having a long vacation between duking it out in space, though it does get the blood pumping. :)

]]> By: Setsuna-san http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223049 Setsuna-san Thu, 22 May 2008 23:55:29 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223049 Best part of this episode for me was the Quarter getting into a melee battle with the Vajra Mothership. How often do you get to watch a ship to ship melee anyways? Bracing for the impact of episode 8. Hopefully it would see our green haired goddess restored to her rightful place. Best part of this episode for me was the Quarter getting into a melee battle with the Vajra Mothership. How often do you get to watch a ship to ship melee anyways?

Bracing for the impact of episode 8. Hopefully it would see our green haired goddess restored to her rightful place.

]]> By: Luke http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223047 Luke Thu, 22 May 2008 23:40:53 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223047 It was awsome seeing the Konig Monster, that girl Canaria is hot!, i wonder if Ozma is with her now or if he still harbors feelings for Kathy Glass. From the look of things, I think Alto is going to be in a world of shit in the next episode It was awsome seeing the Konig Monster, that girl Canaria is hot!, i wonder if Ozma is with her now or if he still harbors feelings for Kathy Glass. From the look of things, I think Alto is going to be in a world of shit in the next episode

]]> By: Haesslich http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-223038 Haesslich Thu, 22 May 2008 23:11:00 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-223038 It figures - Episode 7 is where everyone gets sexy or gets an appearance upgrade... and even Bobby doesn't look as.. wimpy? Scrawny? And we go back to bad art in episode 8... doh! As for missiles, I suspect they're probably a lot cheaper than losing a VF, which may be the overriding concern with any military, much less a contractor like SMS. Which means that, given the choice between a few million used for a missile attack that succeeds in taking out a good chunk of the enemy forces, or losing the VF and pilot... they'd rather shell out for missiles. And yes, quantity has a quality of its own... which is probably why the Vajra kicked much Galaxy ass. But man, I loved Klan in this episode along with the Konig Monster. She looks really good when she's not... ahem... suffering from 'quality' art, and the Konig Monster brings back fond memories of ass-kickings from the original Macross that accompanied its arrival on deck. It figures – Episode 7 is where everyone gets sexy or gets an appearance upgrade… and even Bobby doesn’t look as.. wimpy? Scrawny? And we go back to bad art in episode 8… doh!

As for missiles, I suspect they’re probably a lot cheaper than losing a VF, which may be the overriding concern with any military, much less a contractor like SMS. Which means that, given the choice between a few million used for a missile attack that succeeds in taking out a good chunk of the enemy forces, or losing the VF and pilot… they’d rather shell out for missiles.

And yes, quantity has a quality of its own… which is probably why the Vajra kicked much Galaxy ass. But man, I loved Klan in this episode along with the Konig Monster. She looks really good when she’s not… ahem… suffering from ‘quality’ art, and the Konig Monster brings back fond memories of ass-kickings from the original Macross that accompanied its arrival on deck.

]]> By: Crusader http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-222965 Crusader Thu, 22 May 2008 20:20:42 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-222965 @IKnight Well if we go by the cost of the current "cheap" AIM-9 then the cost is roughly around the 9 million mark so I guess 30 million is a bit out there, until you account for inflation... :P I am sure that in the future they have machines that can refuel and reload a second itano circus in less than 7 minutes and 45 secs allowing for a single VF-25 to sortie more times than the IAF. @Myu I just hope Brera isn't Ranka's onii-chan... @Kabitzin Yeah weapons get cheaper as demand increase hence why the F-22 costs so much per unit is because the Air Force scaled back their orders thus gaining less overall from the investment in the research and development. It seems that Galaxy gets cooler toys, but I am sure SMS is more than ready to meet the potential challenge, as the VF-25 seems to be in quantity, and that a has a quality all its own. ;) If Ranka does get captured I am sure Alto-hime will come to save her... @Shirukii Well Sheryl is a diva afterall...and we know that even the best of them can be insufferable despite their talents. Besides tsun tsun Sheryl is reserved for Alto-hime as is the real dere dere Sheryl. @IKnight
Well if we go by the cost of the current “cheap” AIM-9 then the cost is roughly around the 9 million mark so I guess 30 million is a bit out there, until you account for inflation… :P

I am sure that in the future they have machines that can refuel and reload a second itano circus in less than 7 minutes and 45 secs allowing for a single VF-25 to sortie more times than the IAF.

@Myu
I just hope Brera isn’t Ranka’s onii-chan…

@Kabitzin
Yeah weapons get cheaper as demand increase hence why the F-22 costs so much per unit is because the Air Force scaled back their orders thus gaining less overall from the investment in the research and development. It seems that Galaxy gets cooler toys, but I am sure SMS is more than ready to meet the potential challenge, as the VF-25 seems to be in quantity, and that a has a quality all its own. ;)

If Ranka does get captured I am sure Alto-hime will come to save her…

@Shirukii
Well Sheryl is a diva afterall…and we know that even the best of them can be insufferable despite their talents. Besides tsun tsun Sheryl is reserved for Alto-hime as is the real dere dere Sheryl.

]]> By: Shirukii http://that.animeblogger.net/2008/05/22/macross-frontier-07-koning-monster/comment-page-1/#comment-222891 Shirukii Thu, 22 May 2008 17:19:30 +0000 http://that.animeblogger.net/?p=7696#comment-222891 Hmm, I hope Ranka doesn't get captured, I've never liked the whole damsel in distress thing and rescue arcs tend to suck pretty hard. Oh, and as for Sheryl, it's not her tears that I was accusing of being falsified, I have no doubt those were True Tears. It was her on stage theatrics otherwise, the profuse thanking of fans for their support, the "aishiteru", those things. Hmm, I hope Ranka doesn’t get captured, I’ve never liked the whole damsel in distress thing and rescue arcs tend to suck pretty hard.

Oh, and as for Sheryl, it’s not her tears that I was accusing of being falsified, I have no doubt those were True Tears. It was her on stage theatrics otherwise, the profuse thanking of fans for their support, the “aishiteru”, those things.

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