Also, hasn’t suzaku gotten the emperor alone with him before? If he really wanted to do what he claims, wouldn’t he have assassinated him and taken all his power? SRSLY

Well I wouldn’t be surprise if he does kill the Britannian emperor and usurps his power, as I’d think this would be the only way to change the world according to his guidelines, and after reading what was said. Simple foresight brought about by Susaku’s shear will power. Sorry if someone already said this. In the long run of this anime series; Lelouch is going to become like his father and like Light, and die an excruciating death (perhaps due partly to Nunnaly’s death or abandonment), mean while after he dies; the United States of Japan rebuilds and prospers without ever knowing what happen to their savior Zero.

Oh yea… and Susaku is the Emperor now, and brings about a new era of world piece.

In terms of Lelouch and Susaku’s strategies on a random side-note. I see Lelouch is working in the micro of things, working from the ground up; while Susaku is working in the macro of the larger picture of things, from the top down. While Lelouch is working through shear brilliance, Susaku is working through shear will power and presence.

Well I never really was miffed by Susaku until season 2, selling out his best friend, but there WAS all due reason and I bet using him has bait (thus keeping Lelouch alive) and keeping Nunnally safe was his plan all along. Sadly I’m still miffed by that experience unfortunately. Well Susaku in this season has a steely determination now and I think he knows he is going to have to make more sacrifices that will be more damaging than the last, perhaps even killing Lelouch.

However in terms of Devils and Angels, Lelouch is only doing this rebellion for himself (the end result will be for the promise he made to Nunnally), so he goes on his is selfish vengence spree, using people left and right for the end result, much like the Emperor and his aspect of using people as a means to an end. While Susaku is working for the greater good of all people (an idealist), sacrificing everything, and baring the entire burden necessary to pave the way for a new world.

As for entertainment value, come on, when it comes to a brilliant rebel leader and complacent Empire boot licker, there is no question which is more entertaining. I mean sure Susaku gets to ride around in a mech all day, but how many of us seen these actions time and time again on shows like Gundam. As for Lelouch, his strategies and the drama he must face are far more appealing (Light died too early, in Death Note). I always find myself listening to the V for Vendetta soundtrack after seeing Lelouch and his shinannigans

Suzaku and Lelouch both have redeeming and condemning factors in their personal development. I’m not going into either one because I don’t fancy being flamed. But honestly people, let’s not waste our time flaming made-up characters. Take a breath and go for a walk, enjoy the fresh air. :3

Personally though I was sad when Euphie died. I was starting to like her and then, BAM, she’s gone.

As a side rant when you look at it, maybe someone of Xingke Li’s caliber would be better suited for the role of Suzaku, he is very smart and a great soldier

I completely agree with your points throughout as I’ve long supported Suzaku. Lulu and Suzaku both make hard decisions, all with moral ambiguity that ideas like right and wrong, just and unjust do not really fit in. My biggest issue with Lulu is that he really seems to enjoy killing Brittains, how many times have we heard his maniacal laugh? Most of them he Geasses into committing suicide which is right in line with the character itself, doesn’t have a feeling about killing or using people but physically doesn’t get his hands dirty, the stain of the dark parts of his deeds never touch him as too often he seems to do things without a conscience.

And so many people completely forget what he did to Euphie, not only did he end her life but he forever stained her legacy. When we die the memories people hold of us are the last things that we can hope to remain, and well Lulu killed her and killed all she had done and had wanted to do, there can be few things more cruel then robbing someone of their future, unless you are robbing them of their past as well. So well look what Lulu got in return, he got his memory wiped and his past stolen. Guess the lulu-tards just didn’t like the taste of their own medicine, at least Lulu’s wipe didn’t last long and he got to continue to live.

As for this whole “using” of Nunnally, we all learn its what Nunnally herself wants. Now you might argue that Nunnally would think differently on everything if she knew the whole story, but whos fault is that, who is keeping her in the shadows? Its Lulu and the reason is because the actions he has taken and the reasons he has to justify them are things she would never approve of, and though its nice that Nunnally is there as a nice plot device to be Lulu’s achille’s heel, the truth of the matter is that Lulu is doing the evilest of deeds for himself, when he puts on that Zero mask he becomes a sociopath.

Racism is a funny thing it is no longer permissibble to be openly racist, but nonetheless prejudice is far harder to exterminate than with mere legislation. To say that racism has ended is an underestimation of the depths of human hate. When I mean scaled back I mean that the KKK can no longer lynch people without the law thundering down upon their heads. The fact that the Confederate flag can still be flown and displayed openly means that bigotry is not dead, weakened and anemic yes but it can be revived.

Being a deposed prince and suffering under racial oppression are two very different things. Lulu does not have a cross burned out side his doorstep, nor does he fear walking in neighborhoods where he doesn’t belong. Lulu is never told to go to the back of the bus. Lulu is shut out from the circles of power that does not mean that he cannot carve out a decent living, open racism however keeps a person down, socially, politically, and economically.

racism isn´t scaled down. Even if Nunally creates an utopia for the japanese it´ll be pretty bad… once again we´re back to Lelouch´s screwup with Euphie and how that would have been the best ending and that would have meant no second season.

Lelouch didn´t have to experience the racism first hand, but since he isn´t a big britanian ruler anymore well…

You know what all this has started? I want to watch the first season again. Hell I must lurk trough my collection to see if I can find it.

@manga
Ninja edits Sheryl to Shirley.

Lulu mourns for but an hour and hardly even pays his respects to the graves of those he murdered for his vaunted quest. Lulu basically a robber in a robbery gone wrong kills a person and then weeps as he helps himself to their worldly possessions. Sure he never meant to kill them, but it doesn’t stop him from getting what he wants out of it. That is the extent of his guilt.

Suzaku is naive he’s a dreamer, he is no Gandhi. However if you told me in at the beginning of the 20th Century that this Indian lawyer and his pacifist notions of civil disobedience were going to end colonial rule in India against the premier colonial power I would have laughed as would have you. You think racism was scaled back because some one started shooting the racists? No that honor belongs to the “naive” dreamers who preached racial harmony in the face of violence with out resorting to violent measures themselves. Just because some one is what we call naive does not mean that their failure is assured, it takes a special kind of tenacity and bravery to carry through your high minded ideals.

Lulu doesn’t see any more than Suzaku does, Suzaku had to endure the racism first hand, Lulu never knew what it was like. Lulu knows about as much as Suzaku, Lulu doesn’t even know who killed his mum, yet he goes about killing wantonly because he thinks he knows who the killers were.

@Karisu
Go ahead no one is stopping you.

@wait321
Britannia is not just like old governments, what they do is being done by nations today, just less blatantly. In fact your government might be doing something similar in someplace you never even heard of. Will you then take up arms to destroy them will you cast aside the lifestyle that they provide all that easily? Don’t be so naive to think that a democracy is incapable of reasoned brutality, they are.

Lulu has proven that his solution for everything is using his geass. That hardly means that if he becomes ruler of the world that he will be any better, if some one disagrees with him what is there to stop him from geassing that man into killing himself? Lulu’s rebellion is based around a cult of personality not mind you informed participation, so long as he lives their violence has direction, but when he dies all that will be left will be scripture written by Kallen. Those who believe the most will take it all verbatim and soon we shall see something akin to the Red Guards rampaging about calling for destruction of non believers. Lulu has proven himself underhanded and ruthless what makes you think that such habits will go away once he seizes the throne?

Otherwise, yeah I agree that he can’t admit that he accidentally geassed Euphie. Not in that situation at the very least. It would come about as making pathetic excuses and Lulu would come about as irresponsible. It’s not in Lulu’s personality to begin with. Especially since deep down Lulu accepts Euphie’s tragedy as fully his responsibility, by killing her personally and whole-heartedly mourning for her afterwards.

Nothing. Suzaku wouldn´t hate him any less, that´s for sure.

If a person picks up a gun and starts killing people it´s kinda hard to “redeem” that person later… or if someone commits acts of terrorism… same thing really.

When did I say that Lelouch was a nice guy? he isn´t you know… neither is Suzaku.

Aha, that was one thing I missed with Suzaku´s dad. Still not something I´d expect anyone to do.

If he said that I would assume that he would have a really good reason. But then again, I´m not finished living yet so I would try to survive.

You talk about being naive, but that´s what Suzaku is. “I´ll change the ways from the inside”… And eving having Nunally become the governor… he´s really naive.

What would have changed if Lelouch had said: “I´m sorry Suzaku, I didn´t mean to but I accidentally used Geass on Euphie, that´s the reason she started killing the japanese”?

My guess: nothing. As said, Lelouch is still tormented by that fatal misstake, as he is with the mistake with Shirley.

Talking about Shirley, she was pretty mindfucked by Mao when Lelouch erased her memories… given the opportunity that Mao never happened, things would have been different. And yes, he is sorry for what happened to Sheryl´s father, but when she hugs him you don´t really say: “Yo bitch I´m Zero and I was responsible for the plan that killed your dad”…

That would have changed that Sheryl would have started to hate Lelouch and then she´d probably have to be geassed so that she´ll keep her mouth shut.

Kinda nice that you are saying that Lelouch should have gone directly to his siblings when he is supposed to be dead. Great move… and if he could have, don´t you think he would have? But what kind of show would that have been? 26 eps of talking isn´t really something anyone would want to watch.

But a big freaking war where a small group goes up against a whole empire with a genius as the strategist is going to be watched by millions and millions.

Lelouch took Euphie out of her misery since she didn´t want to do what she was doing. Act of mercy you know. Same with Shirley, he erased her memory so she wouldn´t have to suffer anymore than she already had.

Suzaku only sees the very top of the iceberg while Lelouch who has been there from the beginning knows a helluva lot more about why things turned out the way it did.

But as said, neither of them are “good” or “evil” and basically the way they do things suck. But without them and their actions, it would be a really boring show.