At long last I’ve decided to come up with the scenario for round 2…
Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Yagami Light (Kira)
Two extremely bright young men who aim to create a new world order. Who do you think would win in a battle of wits and mind games? Would Lelouch be able to defeat Light with the powers of his Geass? Or will Light be able to stop him with his Death Note?
First of all let’s lay down the facts:
Lelouch
1. Known under the codename: Zero
2. Has an army of rebels under his command
3. Must be able to make eye contact with Light in order to use his Geass
Light
1. Known as Kira
2. Has Death Note
3. Must be able to find out Zero’s true name and face to use Death Note
Both contenders won’t know each other’s true identity at first so they must use their intellect to outsmart one another.
Opinions
Honestly, Light is at an extreme disadvantage. He only has the Death Note and the help of Ryuk and Misa while Lelouch has an army of mecha soldiers. While he could use Misa’s Shinigami Eyes to find out Lelouch’s true identity, the fact that Lelouch as Zero almost always wears a mask, would neutralize her powers. Misa could also be a risk to Light if Lelouch ever found out that she knew Light’s true identity.
However, Lelouch isn’t without his faults either. Lelouch has had his true identity revealed on many occasions to various people. In terms of how careful he is protecting his identity, it could be said that he’s a bit clumsy. If Light or any of his allies could find out the name and face of Lelouch, then it’s game over once he writes it down in his Death Note.
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20 Comments
I have to disagree with you about Light’s “extreme” disadvantage.
He does not *have* to use Misa right away. In fact, he does not even have to use Misa at all. I believe that, as a person, Light is very patient and hence, he will likely wait for the right opportunity to strike instead of leaning on Misa. I will explain.
Let’s say they start at a level playing field… meaning neither one of them know each other nor their respective abilities to boot…
1. Light likes to play behind the scenes and keep his identity strictly under wraps, whereas Lelouch often unnecessarily reveals his identity to random people some times.
2. Lelouch bathes in the spotlight and makes a lot of enemies faster than the speed of sound. Lelouch even makes enemies of former friends and lets them live. Light does not let his friends live if they know what they not supposed to.
3. Lelouch’s numerous the enemies may not necessarily keep quiet. In fact, they’re vocal about their anger and they show it. Light can easily do casual inquiries and start a large network against Lelouch. Lelouch, on the other hand, does not have a lot of leads because Light acts covertly.
Light… well… his enemies do not even know Light is the one killing them.
Just these reasons are enough to destroy Lelouch. Don’t get me wrong, Lelouch is bad ass, but sooner or later, he’ll quickly make a bunch of enemies and Light will exploit this to his advantage.
The only way for Light to mess up is if he relies on a fool, which he is very careful about. Even so, you have a large network actively disliking Zero, whereas Light’s supposed enemies do not even know who their enemy is.
3. Lelouch’s numerous the enemies may not necessarily keep quiet. —>
3. Lelouch’s numerous enemies may not necessarily keep quiet.
I really need to check my posts more carefully.
i agree that lelouch has an advantage for
light even with the shinigami eye wouldn’t know how lelouch looked
or what his name were and speaking of weaknesses
lelouch has one and that is nunally
Light doesn’t really have one however sometimes the people he gives order
fail to comply which ultimately leads to his death
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NICE SPOILER.
The two of them team up to screw over Captain Aizen.
Incidentally.
Please use spoiler tags (<spoiler></spoiler>) around any spoilers you may post.
Lies. They don’t work.
First off, as far as I can remember, Ryuk was never on Light’s side to begin with. He might have found him interesting but he never agreed to aid him in his schemes, nor did he provide tips if certain occurrences weren’t annoying him personally.
That set aside, in this particular duel of wits, I’d place my bet on Light any day. Lelouch might be a genius, but Light gives a new meaning to the word manipulation. While Lelouch is basically betting everything on the Geass, Light operates in the shadows, his identity, plans, motives, associates, etc. securely sealed away. Also, I don’t really think that having a bunch of supposedly-loyal nutshells under your command is that much of an advantage. The problem with subordinates is that no matter how dedicated they might be, at some point they make (or are forced to make one because of the circumstances) a decision on their own and that one tiny slip is all that Light would need.
Not to mention that Lelouch has revealed his identity on numerous occasions. Honestly, if Karen was able to deduce who he was, Light would have no problem putting two and two together.
@Kyokii: Thank you Kyokii! This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for from this. You made very valid points and which I was aware of more or less. The only reason why I said Light had an “extreme” disadvantage was because I thought the fact that Lelouch had an army of mecha at his side would put Light at a physical disadvantage. Of course though all Light needs is a name and face to stop that entire army.
@Hei: Ah, I overlooked the fact that Lelouch has Nunally. If Light ever found out that there was a connection between them, it would put Lelouch in a dangerous position.
@shia: Um, yea… btw NICE SPOILER.
@DKellis: Haha, I don’t watch Bleach but, I guess that’s a possibility. Btw, I have no idea why the spoiler tags aren’t working nor do I know how the spoiler tags work. -_-
@Myu: If my knowledge is correct (probably isn’t though), Ryuk would sometimes assist Light if there was something in it for himself (i.e. Apples). You’re right about Karen being able to figure out Lelouch’s identity but, that could of been because Karen knew Lelouch (the student) and Light might not have that luxury. But, I do agree… Light is smart enough to figure out his identity. However, Lelouch has pulled off some amazing things himself so it’s hard to underestimate him.
I agree with Myu.
Karen is not the brightest of the bunch, nor is she the dumbest, mind you. If she can figure it out, Light would have no problem too judging from his almost non-human sense of deductive reasoning.
With that, I’d like to add on a few things to my argument above.
I said,
“The only way for Light to mess up is if he relies on a fool, which he is very careful about.”
This was quite a moot point made by me. It applies to Lelouch just as much as it applies to Light. Based on what I’ve seen, Light screens his potential “followers” based on several factors (personality, occupation, ethics) and selects them very carefully (i.e. Teru Mikami, Kiyomi). Lelouch, in the same sense, does the same thing and picks people according to loyalty and aspirations, but fails to do so with the discretion Light possesses.
To jump to the point, with both Lelouch and Light, we see flaws in the process, but more so with Lelouch because Lelouch has to rely on an army, whereas Light *is* the army, a one-man army and that leaves less room for errors. You go on to can say that Lelouch’s flaw is “inherent” because he relies on a vast array of individuals, each with their own nuances and characteristics, or “goals” you may say; this leaves more room for error, which can be disastrous.
For example, some of the people who follow Lelouch possess menacing flaws that immediately get in the way of business, which is immediately obvious. Look at Ogi. Lelouch made him second in command. Ogi was quite the fool when he secretly “adopted” a woman and did not even bother to let anyone know; he let his desires get in the way. Not that I blame Ogi, but it almost led to his undoing at a very critical moment. I was face palming the whole time the event was unfolding before my eyes. And then… there was the “journalist” guy, too. His thoughts and monologues made him very questionable as well, as if he was insane… and Karen, for the people who watched the anime, we know what went down.
My point is, Lelouch’s “system” is the weakness. He relies on too many people, who are more prone to mess up because of their “individuality”… not that it’s Lelouch’s fault. The sheer volume of people he relies on leaves a wide margin for error, as I’ve pointed out, whereas, Light makes things more manageable by doing most of the work, relying on a few trustworthy followers.
Hence, to tie it up… Light can easily turn Lelouch’s followers against Lelouch if necessary, or exploit the many followers’ desires. As for Light, you’d be hard-pressed to do that, much less find out who Light really is.
hmm… I mainly agree with Kyokii, but Light has some flaws too. He got better at being secretive later in the series, but he did act a bit hastily in the begining. Whenever someone gets to close to figuring out he’s Kira, he panics slightly–he’s still very logical about it, but he becomes almost obsessed about making them die. He’s patient, but he has several weaknesses of times when he did act too hastily to eliminate someone. Misa-misa is also a rather large weakness.
@ Linya: Misa-misa is a weakness, esp when Rei is there and Light does panic often
Now back to discussions…if u take a lot of things in consideration…ummm…both have weaknesses, but probably Light will win. Lelouch is indeed smart but Light has logic and intellegence other than having death note (like in 2nd season).
Light doesn’t care about anyone else but himself (he doesn’t mind killing his father), but Lelouch has Nunnaly, who he will not hurt for anything (at least until now)
Again, Lelouch expose himself in public and as many said more people knew about his id and power than Light. Light is smart enough to intellegently inquire about him (which won’t expose him).
So, all in all, both are my favs (may be Lelouch is more), but Light has more advantages and he is more evil (maybe)
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@Shokkeru: You’re right, I forgot about the apple part. However, did Ryuk do anything extremely relevant, after Light bribed him with apples? I finished the manga such a long time ago, I just can’t remember.
Back to Karen, while Light might not know Lelouch as a student the way she did, Lelouch likes to appear before the media. Now, this might be part of the plan to remind his opponents of the growing threat of Zero (and seek followers at the same time), but one must note that his disguise is not really foolproof. Given Light’s personality, if he viewed Lelouch as a threat, he’d be trying to do anything in his power to find out his identity. And honestly, I think it wouldn’t take him that long to figure things out. That whole event with Orange-kun, for example. Correct me if I’m wrong (because it’s been a long time since I’ve watched Geass, too), but to use the Geass on him, Lelouch had to reveal his eye and he did so with many people watching them. Doing that publicly would be practically introducing Light to Lelouch’s own best weapon.
Also, Lelouch has a number of people whom he trusts, cares about and tries to protect, while Light has almost no attachments. Take C.C. for example. Let’s say Light, for some reason, would be unable to uncover Zero’s identity. I’m pretty sure next thing he’d try would be to discover as much as he can about Lelouch’s followers. And an immortal witch, well, that’d be hard to miss. Not to mention that the first time the Black Nights introduce themselves as an organization, I vaguely remember being amazed by their so-called disguises. I think, Karen was wearing a cape and glasses..?
Okay, bizarre. Sorry for the double post (or is it triple post by now?), my comment appeared to be getting eaten, but it seems as though it wasn’t after all.
@Kyokii: Good point. I agree that Lelouch’s army leaves a lot of room for error, that’s just human nature. The main argument I see here is that no matter how smart or clever Lelouch is, Light is always just on a different level. While Lelouch likes the attention of the media (which was probably part of his strategy to recruit followers and to let his enemies know of his presence), Light does indeed stay very secretive. This would make it very hard for Lelouch and even his army of mecha.
@Linya: Yeah you’re right Linya. I think maybe if Lelouch managed to pressure Light, that might make Light act too hastily and might cause him to expose himself a little. If Light did indeed try to use Misa without knowing Lelouch’s powers (which is a bit improbable for Light), that would expose him greatly if Lelouch found out who Misa really was and used his Geass on her to learn about Light.
@Imme: Yes, Lelouch does indeed have Nunally which is a great weakness to him because it’s his main focus. You made a good point that Light doesn’t care about anyone but himself. If that’s the case then if Misa would be a weakness to Light, he could kill her off before Lelouch extracts any information out of her if he really had to. While Misa’s abilities is an asset to Light, his identity (or even his life) is probably more of a priority to him.
@Michael: Look out! Spoilers ahead!
@Myu: You know what, I don’t really remember if Ryuk did anything significant when he was bribed with apples… I’d have to go back and research it. Lelouch does indeed have a lot of exposures (C.C., the Black Knights, the media, etc.). If Light were to just start poking around for information at any of these “branches”, he’d eventually follow it all the way to Lelouch. And yea… I also think that their so called disguises were pretty weak.
Also, I fixed your double post so don’t worry about it ^^
I think it depends whether to put Lelouch’s team into Light’s world or Light’s team into Lelouch’s world.
If we put Light’s team into Lelouch’s world AND into the same school, I think the odds are heavily against Lelouch as Light is smart and sneaky. If we put Light to start unrelated to the school, Lelouch might have better chance before Light starts to associate Zero and Ashford (perhaps through Karen).
If we put Lelouch’s team into Light’s world, as soon as Lelouch gets to deduce the area/family Light is in (L can do it, there’s no reason Lelouch can’t do this far), he can just decimate the whole area/family. I don’t think Lelouch has any problem killing many innocent people. His team might protest, but Lelouch can always geass some of them to do the dirty work and brand them away as traitors.
At any rate, it’s hard to compare them without more setting. Lelouch is more public because he needs to, but I’m sure he’s pretty capable of being as sneaky as Light (although Lelouch has a bad habit of a lax guard with his friends and families). While Light does not have military power, I’m sure he would have no problem snucking up the rank of Britania’s military if he needs to. I’m sure plenty of royalties would be happy to hide him if they can use the Death Note to assassinate others (with natural cause of death too) and then Light can expand his power and influence.
Putting them in neutral situation, where they only need to hunt each other down, with no other agendas, they might be evenly matched. Light might be sneakier, but Death Note requires precision. Lelouch has the benefit of being able to geass some people to slaughter an area once he has an estimate of Light’s whereabout. Although deduction wise, I agree that Light is smarter, Lelouch is rather emotional.
@Aine
I think you’re being very fair by considering the world the duel takes place. This notion certainly makes sense. However, when you bring in something like that, the situation becomes very dynamic; the scenario becomes very, very complicated.
You see, Light and Lelouch both rely heavily on psychologically manipulation, or put in another way, “psychological warfare” and I don’t mean psychological in the Geass-way. What I mean is that both of them act in the name of Justice and both of them draw their support from the population in almost the exact same way: Light does his thing by eliminating criminals and Lelouch does it through war with foreign oppressors. People love it… they love how Light/Kira and Zero fight for the “Good Side.”
About what you said, I’ve ran the idea through my head before already: “What if Lelouch kills off a town or something to eliminate Light since Light is so hard to catch due to his faceless persona?”
By doing so, Lelouch would have effectively killed off his enemy, but there’s a catch. As I have mentioned before, Lelouch fights on the side of justice and “good.” He cannot simply justify to the world why killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people was necessary to eliminate one person. People will not buy it. Sure, Lelouch can claim short-term victory over Light by doing so, but very soon after, Lelouch would lose the support of the populace. In essence, Lelouch would have destroyed the very principles he fought for and it will be over for him. This is the reason why Lelouch would not massacre a town to kill off Kira… it’s not feasible for him in his given circumstances.
This alludes to the point I made in an earlier post. Lelouch pretty much has to rely on his army to fight for him. His army of Justice, the Order of Black Knights. He cannot simply massacre an area full of thousands of innocent people in hopes of killing Kira and claim his army of justice is doing something for Good. It is suicidal for him and his organization in the end; he will tear down everything he built. Even if he did decide on it, it would be up to chance, however big or small, that he catches Kira in the killing fields, but I’ve already said he would be hard-pressed to take such an action.
Regarding Light, he is a very sneaky bastard, a master of schemes who acts as soon as there is an opportunity. I’m sure he’ll immediately recognize the fact that Zero fights for justice and all that is good, but what if there was a swifter justice and a greater good? The Death Note kills with godly precision and unyielding speed. All Light has to do is wipe out entire prison populations, gangs, or even the very King of Britannia. I’m sure the Elevens, if this was Lelouch’s world, will go “Zero WHO?! All hail Kira!” as they kneel before Kira. Put this way, Light does not even have to confront Lelouch directly right away. Light can easily take this roundabout approach and the very symbolic foundation Lelouch stands on will crumble. The Order of Black Knights will have no reason to exist any more when the Britannians mysteriously die. Light can leisurely destroy Lelouch without the threat of an army of Black Knights looming over his head… of course, that is just a hypothetical situation of what could happen. (Oh, and remember why Lelouch was afraid of the peace pact for a moment? Think about why the peace pact in Code Geass was unfavorable and compare it with “the reason” the Black Knights exist, if you need reference for my assertion…) ALSO, if this was Light’s world, which parallels this contemporary world of ours, I’m sure the United States (and the entire world) will go ape if a section of Japan was destroyed by Lelouch’s group for some strange reason. It will not go over well…
Ahem… as I’ve said at the beginning, when different worlds are brought into the picture, things get very complex and they change according to the sequences of events that take place, but I believe that Light is the more cunning contender, hence it will be his victory. Light will easily turn any situation or disadvantage into his advantage and will emerge the winner.
…I’m not saying Lelouch cannot win. Anything is possible really, but Light will win way over more than half the time.
@Kyokii:
You make some very interesting points, but there is the fact that Lelouch does not need to use Geass on his own Order. He could just as easily Geass a few powerful Brittanians and work from there. Still, I have to agree that Light does seem to have the upper hand.
Honestly, I hate comparisons like this.
The two animes are set in completely different worlds with different environments and dynamics.
That said, Kira is so much better.
Think of the enemies LeLouch had to face (dummies) versus the ones Kira had to face (L, the rest of the world)