So fans are hating on ODEX more with Stephen Sing’s Slur
So we wish for hope like the Simoun girls, yet are we worshipping merely ourselves in the process?
I actually have nothing much to say about the whole fiasco of ODEX since it has been over run by so many people lately including me during the past two months. However, the latest blog entries surrounding this issue about Stephen Sing reeks of mere punitive naive flaming.
Stephen Sing, for the uninitiated, is one of the directors in ODEX and the secretary of AVPAS. I will not say that it is a smart choice by any PR standards to leave verbal/written evidence of one’s personal feelings toward such a case, simply when it is such a sensitive issue with cash involved. When you are one of the heads of a company, the confidentiality of such sentiments should be kept strictly to yourself and is an invite to ridicule. It seems easy to accuse him for being a total fill-in-the-blanks. However, as much as I want to flame him altogether for his gloating words, I can’t.
Why not, you might ask? The thing is that the resulting flames and entries written by the anime community in Singapore has done nothing except to pander to our egos as a group that is happy to accuse anything done by ODEX without moving a step backwards to think a little about the things that are moving in. I do think that the anime community is a small but tightly knitted one, but sometimes a bit too naive in its knowledge about people being sued. I can be very sure that none of the money that went to sueing those people goes into the pockets of ODEX, simply because the lawyer fees for setting those cease and desist letters will probably take up most of the profit.
Another fact that many fans should take note is this. ODEX does not depend on the fans to actually survive. If anything, ask yourself whether you have ever remotely feel like buying any ODEX releases. I am not going to make a judgment on whether the product is good or bad, but 90% of the people in Singapore who download anime will not think twice to actually buy the product truthfully. As much as we all like to be saints and blame ODEX for it, they do not need us to keep their company afloat. If they really have to depend on us to actually buy their products to survive, I doubt we will complain about ODEX at all since they will be defunct years ago.
So what if you boycott the product? I am sure that ODEX earns more profit selling broadcast rights of the anime that they license to the cable companies such as channel 56 and Channel U, as well as doing dubbing for overseas ventures. I also have to be a little controversial in saying that there are no enemies in the anime community in Singapore since anime downloading is never legal in the first place. ODEX is never having any form of credibility in the first place, and screwing up the fans that will never buy the product will have almost a net effect of ZERO. Hence, why not please the broadcasters and dubbing companies who are paying them the cash, and secure their profit line?
My simple word for this issue is this: Being childish over this downloading and the words spoken is really not putting the community in a good light. What will people think of us? My bet is that we will be seen as a group of immature little punks that know nothing of the law and simply know how to flame. I do not like to be seen in that light at least. I do not expect everyone to agree with me, and some might even flame me for this stance. Still, make a sense of some things I have to say, and think if it makes sense at all.
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Go for it Impz! I’m behind you on this! Bout time someone put down those lawless punk Bleachtards screaming for their free fix!
I don’t disagree with you - I think some people are overreacting a bit and making themselves seem damn superior and it’s not fair.
But I just wanted to ask: you sure Odex sells the broadcasting rights to Animax Asia? I’m not sure. Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t broadcasting and distributing rights separate (they may be bought both by ODEX in some cases, but not all)
In any case, Animax Asia has direct ties with Sony and Animax in Japan; surely they get a lot more of their anime through that avenue rather than having it licensed by ODEX and then getting it through ODEX again.
I always was under the impression that they’re separate.
And if what you say is true and ODEX has the rights for Animax-Asia shows, then wa lao, they have been sitting on Princess Tutu for a damn long time now. Not fair.
My anime DVD collection is proof that I will buy anime legally if the quality didn’t, yanno, suck.
Also, I need to work on getting a region-free version of a computer DVD player. One reason I whine so much about video quality is because I make AMVs, which already suffer from compression woes, and a bad source makes everything horrible.
Hey, what about me
[...] Impz on THAT has a good article on why whatever rants the community does, will not hurt Odex. In fact, immature rants only make the community look back. While I feel for those who are being served letters by Odex, I totally agree with him, which is why I keep trying to correct misconceptions about what Odex is doing. [...]
[...] just came up with a good write up on the situation. It’s balanced and neutral, I agree with him, and it shouldn’t be [...]
[...] 12, 2007 Because from the looks of it, you’re heading into another Gainax-esque [...]
I couldn’t have said it better myself. We must prove we’re more mature than that. \(^o^)/
@Rdrake: Hah! Anyone who really downloads Bleach now is queer since it is openly available in the market. There is really little complains since the DVDS/VCDS are out in the market.
@W: I have to admit that my knowledge of that is rather minimal. I wish I have the insider knowledge about ODEX and its dealings with the broadcasters, but I am not too sure myself. Nevertheless, with the dubs and subs required on Animax, I believe that some of the series with dubs are possibly acquired from ODEX.
Since Animax Asia does have ties with Sony and Animax (I do not have that knowledge), they still require the subs who are actively created by ODEX since they are one of the prominent groups in terms of such work. After some notes from my buddy, I was told that Animax is a competitor, but they do sell their series to channel 56 and channel U. My bad on the inaccurate fact and I changed it in the text.
Nevertheless, I do believe that part of their profits do come from those avenues. Ouch there for Princess Tutu.
@Dkellis: As much as I wish to applaud you, the truth is that we are all too stingy to spend anything at all. I will not deny that i am hardly the role model in terms of buying things. Still, I bought infinite ryvius since it is cheap and I kinda want to watch the show too.
@Drm: You are a resident flamer that hurts no one but jokers
@Ronin: It’s a hard thing to do though, since the Internet provides anoyomity to say whatever you want. However, do not ever use the word anime community and insult it, that’s my plea to people who simply want to flame odex for the sake of it. Think before you type and publish. Responsibility and ethics of a writer is important to keep whatever little credibility we have as a community.
I do agree with you. I think the issue now is to re-educate the people who think that downloading anime is still okay. I have spoken to a couple of friends who thinks that they will not be so unlucky and continues to download but I can tell you soon they might be going up the lorry for this.
At the moment I’m just wondering how many more downloaders will they send their dreaded letters to.
[...] here [...]
YES.
Anime fans are childish. We’ve all known this. That’s why we should be ashamed to be anime fans.
People just need an excuse to justify why they are downloading, when the truth is everyone’s a cheapskate. And most of these “fans” are pretty close-minded, refusing to listen to anything or learn anything besides which Bleach Bankai is the coolest. The reason why I’m delaying posting the Odex stuff is because I don’t feel like having my blog being dirtied by ridiculously juvenile comments anymore.
T_T
I am serious when it comes to this, impz.
My primary objection with Odex is not that it is cracking down on illegal downloaders, although its methods appear slightly repugnant, possibly because I associate with a few too many privacy advocates here in the US.
Rather, I feel irritated by how they place the entire blame on said illegal downloaders for lack of sales. I, for one, would be happy to buy high-quality DVDs with good subs, even at an increased price. But Odex does not release these, and so I do not buy them… and because of this, in the middle of all this brouhaha, I am apparently lumped together with the Evil Downloaders.
Seriously, I have packed two 24×24x18 inch boxes so far with anime R1 DVDs, after I gave away plenty of other anime DVDs to my friends (I don’t know what possessed me to buy Steel Angel Kurumi 2), and I still have more to go. I want to continue buying anime, but I don’t know if I will have anime to buy in the first place. If Odex wants my money, they have to earn it. (What is up with their video encoding anyway? I mean, R1 anime DVDs are bad enough, but…)
As for Stephen Sing’s posts, if those were really his, I will say that this is a case of informality clashing with professional expectations; I don’t think he meant it all that seriously, but with such a relatively sensitive topic (witness the huge mess Six Apart encountered with a few misplaced words with regards to removing content on Livejournal), this is probably not a topic to joke about.
As for the fallout, well, previous experiences with loose-lipped corporate execs implies that the odds of a formal apology being issued is slightly less than the whole thing being swept under the rug publically.
I’m really curious as to what’s going to happen in the future with regards to this–will ODEX really achieve what they sought out to do, and what’s going to happen to the Singapore anime community (the anime watchers and bloggers).
I hope that in the long run people won’t be driven out of their favorite hobby and bloggers like you will still continue to churn out posts.
I quite enjoyed this post impz, very responsible of you.
What I find fascinating is the lengths we will go to to justify our activites which are in reality with no maybes, illegal. Those who are “biting” back at ODEX are just being plain silly.
When you are in the wrong it can be hard to accept it when you’re told. There is a simple solution though! Obey the law.
As much as one can be on the “mature” side or on the “childish” side, even if YOU, impz, have been dling at maybe even FEB, will get a letter dating back to FEB. And one cannot help but feel unfair about this.
And i think that’s why everyone is so angry. I proposed to HWZ to write a apology and cease fire letter with lots of signs from anime fans, but they actually started flaming me to be a odex spy.
We know very well singapore’s anime community is mostly filled with bleachtards or narutards. And you know that they won’t be so easy to calm down.
I dunno what kind of connection you guys have, but it’s really unsettling to see you guys so calm about what’s going on. But if you really do have some, maybe some tips on how to stop this fiasco would be good instead of shooting post on who’s right or who’s wrong on the net.
@Alafista: I think that the very important issue is not to panic because it is nevertheless very likely that any of us who has downloaded anime earlier might be liable to such a charge if ever they intend to backdate their information. Nevertheless, everyone has a chance to get that dreaded letter. It’s unnerving yes, but to blame them is equally naive.
@Marmot: To cookies, to lolis or to love?
@Tj: I guess that it is ironic that this is the one time that I have to agree with you. It’s my point that I believe that this is perhaps the scenario that all of us are coping with. In a way, it will always be hard for everyone, but still it is always the need for the community who is willing to help it to go on persevering on this.
@Drm: I know ^^
@DKellis: About your topic on quality, I don’t think there is much to discuss since it has been repeated for god knows how much. However, I do agree with your sense of informality clashing with professional expectations. It is sad that we have little to no privacy online, but the thing is that he should never have joked about it.
It’s a terrible joke and it is no good for any company head to be speaking of such stupid words, no matter whether the claims are true or false.
@Orangee: I wonder about it too, but the community itself is perhaps going to still stay somewhat. It is definitely deterring quite a few people, yet many will still resume on their activities. I believe that there is a possible compromise on series that are not licensed and those that are.
If there are any people in the ODEX group that is willing to openly tell us what is right or wrong, as well as alleviate the confusion around, that will be wonderful. Still, the community and ODEX both suffers from this latest fiasco.
@Mellow_bunny: I would love to disagree with you, but it is perhaps true that we always try to justify our actions with our own facts. We are humans after all, and even I justify my words. Now, we can only pray hard.
@Hitoshura: I think that if anything, we got to know exactly what mellow_bunny said: the fact that downloading any anime is never legal in the first place. We got to come to the realization that it is a painful issue to deal with, both mentally and monetary.
I can understand why people are angry, but if anger can solve matters, I do not mind flaming the living lights out of ODEX. I believe that those fans are seriously just kids who wants to get their way, and it’s sad that there is a constant lack of knowledge over this.
I don’t really have any connections (though I do wish). It’s more of the feeling that we already given up of sorts to simply see what the future lies for us. I mean, to be honest, there is little to no way that we can truly do anything. I am just being calm because it will simply make a whole state of paranoia go much worse. What for? There is no purpose.
I don’t really think that I am being overly judgmental, but if you can name an example where juvenile action helps in alleviating a situation, tell me.
hey anyone her kena odex letter?
wad to do ar?
has anyone tried not paying?
Uguu~ No flames at all, totally unexpected. Well, I guess my anti-flame post worked…
god there has to be questions like that every dam time.
Yes alot kena, nothing to do, wait to die. Everyone sure pay up.
And for future template questions:
1) Singtel only right? starhub will kena onot ar?
- ALL kena, now cry.
2) BT only hor? ddl and streaming can or not ar?
- ALL kena, now cry.
3) must pay how much ar? can don’t pay or not.
- 3 to 5k, don pay go court lor.
4) why must write this?
- Cuz i’m SOO dam sick of seeing the same dam thing everyday especially in hardwarezone.
By the way, Impz, how well do you think would a apology and surrender letter work?
@Hitoshura: I will love to tell you that it works, but the truth is that they have no need/no right/no requirement to please us at all. The thing is that they have a strong case in terms of downloading since they do hold most of the anime licenses that will be released. Singapore, sadly, is never that supportive of piracy and an “apology and surrender letter” will simply be seen as an act to allow piracy to go on.
As much as it is an utopian idea that can help many parties, the truth is that we are in the minority in terms of thinking this way. 90% of us will think that it will never happen to us and there’s no point at all. I have to strike you down of sorts that it will not work. Of course, that is if I am adopting the mindset of ODEX or any policy maker dealing with this matter.
@Jass: I have no clue and it’s depressing news for sure. I am sure most paid up. As much as there is a huge discussion on whether not paying up might give a fighting chance to the person suffering the penalty in court, most of us (including me) are cowards who will simply tell someone to do it, and quietly hide in the shadows when people really need help.
@Rdrake: yes, it definitely worked. HAH!
“My bet is that we will be seen as a group of immature little punks that know nothing of the law and simply know how to flame.”
I think that’s exactly what the average anime fans are. Anime isn’t friendly with intelligence or maturity, and like someone in another blog has said before, it is foolish to publically label yourself as an anime fan, since we do have a bad stereotypical image perceived by the society (and for good reasons). But it’s very novel of you to try enhance the community’s image and the community definitely could do more with such fans. I personally think the best option is to stop worrying about all this and enjoy my anime, since as much as I’d like for the community to develop and be recognised as a group of sensible people, you might as well hope for world peace.
Your english sucks ass. I bet you think u r writing a very well argued piece of essay, naive little sucker.
Do us a favour please and go brush up your english by reading the papers and reader’s digest more will ya? I have had enough of bad english from people who think they are Mark Twain.
The reason I keep replying to this issue is because I really don’t understand what all these posts are trying to do. This, incidentally, is not directed specifically at you, Impz, but more towards those who said much the same thing with more inflammatory language.
Insult anime fans in general by painting with a broad brush? Well, success has been achieved. I don’t know why one would engage in self-loathing to this extent, but, well, not my blog.
Attempt to cause shame and thus possibly change? It’s been tried before in other loose-knit communities which were nevertheless knit in some way, and it has never, to my knowledge, worked in any community other than very, very small ones. Fandom_Wank on Journalfen has several examples of failed attempts; I don’t think I’ve seen anything from this whole mess on there yet.
Justify Odex’s actions? Like I said, my problems with them cracking down on illegal downloaders is how they went about doing it, since, once again, it causes me some sort of physical discomfort to my privacy advocate side.
Flaming will happen. Look at Six Apart/Livejournal’s handling of what fandoms there now call Strikethrough 2007. An apology, needed or otherwise, will not appease many. Six Apart was completely within their rights, legally speaking, to do what they did (delete fandom journals for, well, technical yaoi shoutacon, albeit with the younger character at fifteen or so). They just weren’t nice about it, and thus, we have people demanding that Six Apart reimburse them for such-and-such amount of paid time, or calling for an exodus off of Livejournal. Compare to the calls of a boycott against Odex products.
Flaming will happen, reactions will happen, and none of it is likely to change anything. It is a thing fans, anime or Bleach or Full Metal Alchemist or Harry Potter or Interview With A Vampire, do. So it goes.
My personal thoughts: Odex, as it is, should have gone on the “defunct wagon” a long time ago. Yes, the quality issue has been bandied about over and over, which should say something about why the issue has been bandied about over and over. I can’t say that lack of quality will automatically result in Horrible Things for the company, since, well, 4kids. But I doubt they are completely blameless in their own lack of sales, or we wouldn’t have the whole “I’d buy Odex DVDs if it weren’t for their lack of quality” discussions in the first place.
If Odex do not require anime fans to survive. Then why is there a witch hunt now?
Yes, downloading of licensed animes is illegal. That much has been well-established. I’m mainly peefed about the way things are handled and the hefty $3-5k settlement.
Outside of the obvious legal implications related to the Berne Convention, one has to take into account Fansubbing when dealing with downloading of animes, as is the case of the ODEX saga. Fansubbing is a ‘phenomena’ exclusive to the anime world or culture. I used the word ‘phenomena’ because it does not affect the other medium. I’m sure we anime fans know by now the existence of Fansubs DO affect the number of illegal anime downloaders in a significant way. Fansubbers and their downloaders adhere to a ‘common code of ethics’ or ‘unspoken agreement’ that once an anime has been licensed, the fansubs will stop and the downloads should too.
To the newly-initiated anime fan though, this can cause much confusion. It masked the fact that downloading any animes is potentially illegal. I only started watching animes recently too. I’ll admit by saying this fansubbing deal was confusing to me at first. I know it’s wrong to download copyrighted stuff but I was given the impression (when I visited anime fan websites) that as long as it is fansubbed, it would be alright because the animation creators allow them too. I was not able to differentiate between licensed and unlicensed animes until later.
As such, I feel ODEX, in its recent sweep, had punished similar new anime fans (not unlike myself when I started out) with a hefty sum (said to cover legal/operation costs) of $3-5k. These same new anime fans who had no idea what is the difference between licensed and unlicensed animes, and had been exposed to the fansubs-downloading trend. That is why there are so many downloaders in the first place!
A better way to handle this would be to issue warning letters and only sue repeat offenders. I suspect ODEX could not do so because it did not want to or could not bear the initial operations cost to track the downloaders. But that does not mean using such ’strong-arm tactics’ is appropriate, especially when they know they are dealing with mainly young children.
To those involved: We, as adults, should protect and educate our children. This does not involve slapping an incriminating letter on a 9yr-old, and be dispensed from the burden of educating them. When Stephen Sing gloats that he had “double-6-ed many downloaders”, he had, in fact, “double-6-ed” mostly young kids half his age. /rant
Sure, downloading anime is illegal but again, I’m not so sure that Odex has the ‘right’ or legality to do what it’s been doing. For one thing, they’ve stated that they will try and claim damages for not just animes whose licenses they hold, but whose company they have licensed even just one anime from. Legally, how on earth does this even make sense? Even if you want to talk about breach of copyright infringement, it’s the parent companys duty to pursue this issue not some local distributor who doesn’t even have the license. But oh, I forgot, Odex is trying to claim damages under the mantle of AVPAS but suspiciously enough, AVPAS was founded by the same director of Odex and shares the same address. Sound like a front?
Secondly, while you might have some sound points about how Odex doesn’t need anime downloaders and how downloading is illegal, I think you’re also being slightly self-righteous and short-sighted in your condemnations of the anime community that seems to dislike this move in particular. For one thing, many see it as a ‘grab money’ move by Odex, who apparently can’t be bothered to improve their shitty subs and quality but can be motivated to threaten to sue people for money. This is generally not how a company should want to be perceived. Of course, it doesn’t help that they are claiming rights to series they don’t even license.
@Odex: I hope that flaming me will make you happy, since you provide almost 0 constructive input at all. That is rather sad.
@Dkellis: Hmmm, I will say that privacy is still a very touchy topic in terms of whether someone’s personal data can be gotten if there is significant evidence to show that it might be a crime. The many issues revolving around more serious crimes and the respect of privacy in many matters has resulted in a blurring of the lines.
I will not say that ODEX has done a good job, but they are definitely not doing anything that will hurt them too much anyway. I do not think that I am insulting the anime community but it is apparent that we are being stereotyped as such, and we are simply feeding onto that stereotype if we only talk in a manner that is one of a juvenile throwing random toilet paper up the ceiling.
@Anon: This might merely be my speculation, but I believe that the motivation of clamping down on downloaders is to first create a good environment for the investors for dubbers/broadcasters to believe that what they broadcast will not be easily available on the net. They do bother about the ratings, and I believe the bulk of ODEX’s profits come from there too.
Another thing is perhaps the external pressure of piracy in itself. Piracy is a rampant problem, no matter how much we try to justify that fansubs are not piracy. Under few circumstances does fansubs help in this, like how Haruhi Suzumiya did it with Banzai on the helm. Those cases are rare, and it’s simply because it is an extremely huge hit.
Still, I have no insider knowledge, hence all are merely speculations.
@Fraggloc: I believe that it has been a situation that is a little out of control. The thing is that most people are unknowledgable about such issues, but that does not mean that they can be scot free as well. Put it this way, if you look at it from a household perspective, a sum of 3-5k is a strong deterrent but not a sum that will cause bankruptcy by any case.
The thing with the Berne convention is that it is no longer relevant in the world where piracy is eating up more profits than providing back to the community. I am not saying that fansubs are evil since I am an anime viewer, but from the commercial point of view, it is sadly true.
To add, if they could simply do that, I am sure that they will do it but it probably costs a lot for them to even start anywhere. You are technically incurring all the logistic and lawyer fees just to give people a dire warning that costs them nothing. That is almost impossible, unless you presume ODEX is a charity. I do agree that this is quite a strong-arm tactic, and I am half of a mind to agree and yet disagree too.
I will say once again too that Stephen Sing’s words are tasteless, and I do not like how he said it. However, the culture of piracy has been so often that people no longer see it as bad.
@Evilplushie: I believe that the japanese licensing companies have given full rights of distribution within Singapore to ODEX, hence giving them the right to apprehend people on their behalf. I will not delve into conspiracy theories myself, since I am not a good person to analyze too much. I might go on a whole detour of thoughts that does not make sense.
I think that the issue is that most people cannot see that they earn NOTHING. I say again, NOTHING at all from the proceedings. A little research on the cost of Raja & ******, the lawyer group that they hire for this letter, the investigation and other costs will show you that they hardly earn any profit from charging people. However, people selectively read what they want, and I think that no one will absorb this fact that they earn very little from it. A little thinking though will help to perceive it, but we are all short sighted when we do not like reality, don’t we?
I do not deny that I do not like the move, but I can understand the motivation behind it as well. I think the huge problem comes with the lack of promotional advertising and decent “crisis management” if you allow me to misuse the term a little.
I also cannot deny that I do condemn the anime community sometimes for the lack of maturity. Going down the level of people who insulted you is not a good way to argue, and I personally believe in this mantra. If you want respect, you have to earn it first. No one will respect a group of people that vehemently screams at things whether they are right or wrong. Do you speak reason or use force against a group of punks?
“The thing with the Berne convention is that it is no longer relevant in the world where piracy is eating up more profits than providing back to the community.”
The problem being that the companies are STILL making a profit despite piracy - which means that piracy isn’t such a big problem after all. The only statistics corporations can provide for “lost sales” are “punitive damages” - which is equal to the amount subtracted from their supposed target. This is not decided by the customer - it is decided internally, and explains why the numbers are so “optimistic” and “unrealistic”.
And you know something is wrong when it suddenly becomes a company’s RIGHT to earn as much as their projected figure.
…So what exactly would you consider a constructive solution?
I talked to Toh SK. Nothing happened.
tj han talked to Peter. Now his hands are tied because of all the little flaming punks, and he can’t release his info.
I still believe we need to work with them rather than against them, but the fact is that they have no need nor inclination to work with us, unless we can show them that they stand to lose by not doing so, or stand to gain by doing so. Thus far, our track record hasn’t been too wonderful in that regard.
Unless we offer to all become shareholders and get Odex to do an IPO!
Punitive damages aren’t recognised in Singapore if I’m not wrong.
And if the japanese companies do allow Odex/AVPAS to prosecute for series whose licenses they don’t have, it would pretty much be an unprecedented move. Why? Because there is no frigging reason to do that. If like you said, there is no profit to be earned from this, why would the japanese companies even bother? Do you think Singapore is even a concern to them?
Considering that japanese downloading of anime is a lot more rampant and that actually affects japanese anime dvd sales and yet Japanese companies don’t do anything about that, I just find the whole thought process that the companies would allow Odex to do what they’re doing totally illogical. They get no benefit out of it at all.
evilplushie:
The claim made by Dr Toh when I talked to him was that the Japanese companies don’t want Singapore to become a distribution centre for filesharing (which could potentially affect the Japanese and US markets).
Whether or not this idea holds water is up to you to decide.
[QUOTE]…So what exactly would you consider a constructive solution?[/QUOTE]
Make a product that actually APPEALS to fans?
I own Odex products alongside HK/TW parallel imports, and alongside “the ahem stuff”.
I have Chuangyi products on my shelves and scanlations somewhere in my backups. Tokyopop and Vidz are readily avaliable from the library.
All for the same titles.
The difference between the two local companys’ approach to the media is ASTOUNDING. As an anime fan, you should be able to tell that one of them has pride in their work and in the genre - and it most definitely isn’t Odex*. I’m not going to outline any reasons here since I’ll just be parroting other users.
You might say that improving a product won’t stop piracy - this is true, because this ISN’T THE GOAL. THE GOAL IS TO INCREASE SALES WITHOUT ALIENATING YOUR FANBASE, BY PROVIDING A PRODUCT EVEN PIRATES WOULD WANT TO BUY. Once the fans stand behind your stuff, most of the marketing is already done for you, and you don’t really need marketing outside of a website.
Antipirates forget the unwritten otaku law that even pirates observe: it’s better to own the originals than stuff on backup media. THIS is what drives EVERY media industry, and is especially what drives the industry in Japan!
Disclosure: I’ve personally seen Mr Ho’s and Mr Sim’s bad sides a few years back (and how I got to see this, unfortunately, must remain secret). They see themselves as victims and martyrs of the local industry - and they actually made an exclamation, to an entire meeting room, that they do not care for a fanbase that doesn’t think much of their products. I’m sorry, but after that episode, I can’t say I have any sympathy for Odex and its policies at all.
*I do note that it’s pretty easy to beat a scanlator in terms of quality, as compared to trying to beat a ’subber. That being said, you should read what Aussie manga reads have to say about Chuangyi (imported by Madman).
A distribution centre for filesharing??!?!?!? How on earth does this make sense. Do they even know how torrents work???? How large is Singapores population and how many of them even bt anime?? Compared to countries like China, America, Japan etc. Hell, even NY ALONE has a large population than Singapore. What crap is this?
And I agree. Improve quality and consumer service. Not sue people.
@A chicken passeth: I couldn;t agree more. no fanbase for their products= no sales. well, they’ve covered pretty much all of that. And, instead of going in the right way of improving their sales image by improving their quality, they’re making things worse by cracking down on the very fanbase, which had enough of their lemons and turned to filesharing. Like you I’ve lined my own stuff up. ( Direct from Japan, ODEX, Parallel imports from HK, and the “ahem stuff” as you put it.) I found that in terms of quality, odex is the worst of the lot( hell, i’ve seen fansubs that have better quality than the parallel imports..)
@evilpushie:
If they did, i don;t think it;d be the first. The way I see it, we’ve passed through MusicTown( saying no to pirated music) and Movieville( same for movies) especially here, next stop, AnimeFalls. Although one thing doesn;t make sense… is it ODEX trying to use the japanese companies to earn more money, or is it the japanese companies using them to crack down on dlers? Either way, it doesn;t make any sense to let a local distributor do the crackdown, which should be done by the japanese owners.
5parrowhawk:
I’d be a willing shareholder, provided the quality of the products improve and they keep the hell out of the tabloids and papers for all the wrong reasons. Frankly, i have a strange feeling that all this negative publicity will lead to either oe of two things… One, the current “most hated man in singapore” drops out of ODEX, or two, the company overreaches itself in it’s earnest yet wrongly taken route of alienating their customers, and ends up self-destructing.
Ok as a big fan of anime i share the same sentiments with most of the people here. That ODEX made a very wrong move with regards to the situation at hand. Many people will get burned for this (singnet, starhub & possibly Pacnet user’s info given to odex)if not all.
If ODEX is making a profit by using scare tactics to bully people into paying them the settlement which is 3k to 5k. Then boycotting their goods won’t affect them or won’t cause the company to capitulate. If thats true then thry will be around for a long long time suing people after people. yes they got illegal downloads to a complete halt, hurray to them but at the same time they also killed the anime market here, as no one will be bothered with it because of ODEX and the many red tapes surrounding anime distribution here.
IF as claimed by ODEX that the settlement fees are only to cover the expenses used to sue the masses,and they are not taking in a single profit. Then many people will think (including me) why go through all that trouble? Only good thing from this with sinking profits from boycotts and expensive lawsuits, they may sink soon. If they want to curb piracy why make the people who got fined sign non disclosure agreements? ( smells fishy doesn’t it)
Anyway all these talk and analysis won’t do a SINGLE thing to the current situation unless all this is being published in the newspapers and stuff. information to the masses. that will probably do a bit and definitely get much more people’s attention.
The key point is that this case is getting almost zero media attention (unlike the tt-durai fiasco). SO unless someone bring this to the media the current situation will not change no matter how much we complain and scold ODEX.
Lastly and not least, ODEX ………. YOu guys are the worst! shame on you for doing all this.
if you really want media attention, i guess there’s a couple of ways. through STOMP, our usual route, writing to the Today paper and Straits Times. After all, we are supposed to be able to voice out our opinions there.
@A chicken passeth:
Explain to me exactly what they stand to gain from making a decent product. If you consider it in the cold light of day, there are a lot more gullible aunties out there buying “cartoons” for their kids than there are anime fans. Guess which market Odex is primarily targeting.
Even if all the anime fans in Singapore up and boycott them, it doesn’t make a shred of difference.
Similarly, they have no reason to believe that improving their quality will increase sales enough to cover the costs (see: poor sales of DVDs). I suspect that some of them are out of touch with reality when it comes to quality issues, but at the same time even the decent-quality products are not being bought. Guess who’s to blame for that (and no, I don’t mean the fansubbers)?
Now that I think about it, what can be done is to communicate through the only language they seem to understand: sales figures. Publishing fair, unbiased reviews of their products, with an emphasis on the quality (or lack thereof) of the video/audio, in a place where people actually see them will, I think, push people towards purchasing the good and rejecting the bad. Up to now nobody’s talked about doing REAL reviews (as in, neither bitching and whining nor sucking up to them), but it could be one of the missing pieces in this whole sordid puzzle. The difficult part is, of course, making sure those reviews actually get read and acted upon.
“Explain to me exactly what they stand to gain from making a decent product. If you consider it in the cold light of day, there are a lot more gullible aunties out there buying “cartoons
These “punishments” if I recall reading at one blog is just a piece of a bigger plan for Singapore to become an animation hub just like Japan. I mean, what would people say if Singapore promotes its own work yet condones illegal distribution of copyrighted anime?
Japan wasn’t a litigation hub. You don’t need to be a litigation hub to do anything.
@mushi: Yes, cause japan likes suing the people who dl anime -_-
And in all honesty, Odex apparently does need the anime fandom to survive. Reason why I say this? Because if they didn’t, they WOULDNT be bitching so goddamn much about the downloading and suing people. Didn’t they claim their sales went down to 60/70%? If things don’t change, I can pretty much confirm their sales figures would have just kept dropping year by year until they did something that appealed to fans.
Instead of going straight into suing, why don’t they send letters to warn people to stop downloading?
30% for my love of anime dropped. Shana + Haruhi is just gone for good now. Time to study. Less crap to chat about. I really wonder what is going to happen to the anime community here. Would the anime shop be affected? Would people really stop getting a free copy of anime? there are so many alternatives here, just upload a different file name anime, they wouldn’t be caught right? Use other countries downloading method?
I guess just stop downloading right now. I seriously hate to see all the chaos that is happening to the once so bumpy/happy/erm peaceful? anime community =(. Goodluck.
I heard they are doing batch suing right now. 1/17 got sued only. They are still processing. This amount is only for singtel users. He is seriously using his double-6-6 thing now. I’m just wondering what will happen to those who really can’t afford to pay them?
I think it’s bad enough that Odex is issuing letters like nobody’s business but if Stephen Sing was/is really gloating over his spectacular success in forcing anime downloaders to settle by threatening to sue them, he should be shot.
It’s worse that Odex gets to backdate, so turning over a new leaf now doesn’t make much of a difference. THIS ISN’T ENFORCEMENT. THIS IS MORAL PROFITEERING. Not even Odex’s equivalents in the US of A (a true litigation central) backdate when they C&D fansubbers.
hai the flames goes on. the only time i bought odex anime was when GUNDAM SEED and destiny was out. that i saw 50% discount on anime thhan i also bought. But seriously if i compare gundam seed torrent and gundam seed cd from odex i dare say the online quality is better( had to dl them again due to cd spolit) Cd cant last forever. unless they can give us back up cd for the spolited ones. I hope they are happy sueing little kids and sedning them to boys home.( 50% of the anime community come form kids age 8-16)
Since there is a rich discussion (with a bit of flaming), I feel that I should get some time after my work to deal with the comments said. However, with work on my hands, I will try to reply to those that I have some thoughts on.
@A Chicken passeth: I guess this is one of the things in terms of laws that protects the corporate world becaus eventually, it is the companies that drives the economies. I guess morally, ODEX is on the slide but using it from a macro level, I am not too sure.\
I also believe that the quality has to really improve, but I also believe that it becomes a huge chicken and egg question. Even if they do improve now, no one is there to show that it has really improved. I feel that despite the extremely bad PR coverage of the issue and the fact that it can be done much better, there’s really enough flaming, sulking and figure out collectively how to improve the situation.
@sparrowhawk: I believe a pro active attitude from the anime bloggers to help advertise, evaluate and review the products in an objective light will help the company to first address the problem of poor subbing and the likes.
To add, I am sure that they will soon recognize this to be a well-intended attempt to solve the rampant downloading but bad piece of PR in the way they did it.
@Bye my love: I believe it is the sheer cost that merely warning people will do absolutely nothing. If you are warned by someone to simply not download anything, I think most of us will probably ignore the order. It is extremely strong handed, and I don’t like it. I do not think it is morally correct also to say that the downloading does have some implications in terms of profits, though it requires some research on the extent of it.
To add, researchers find it hard with this topic because it is always hard to have a measurement on the operationalization of piracy on the whole, as well as the requirements of finding all the constants to test these two factors in an accurate manner.
@Aeigoter: The gloating part is definitely not nice, but the replies by the forum kids are equally atrocious.
@Masterkof: I cannot really say about the moral integrity of the company as a whole after the statement, even though I am less proud of the anime community with the vehemous flaming. If we call him horrible, we are perhaps equally so by returning the fire (even if anyone joked it is merely NATO). Will someone ever know that a death threat is true or false when he knows there are so many sentiments against a certain person?
@Mushi: It is supposedly a note as I have seen before, but I am not taking any part of it as a whole conspiracy. I do not think it is so, but merely a global confusion over piracy.
global piracy might be the picture at large, but the main picture to focus on is not just that one. to combat global piracy, you can;t simply start a single country and make them a example. that simply encourages others to find loopholes to exploit.
Company has the legal high ground regardless, that doesn;t mean that the consumers will simply flock to them, even IF they were the only ones distributing in SEA. Even more so, because of their poor quality goods, that look like a slipshot copypaste from china, and the high prices. (Contrary to claims of lowering the price as far as they can go, they are retailing in most shops from between $24-29.90 per box, as the 10 bucks per 13 episode box is simply a promotion that is done at “roadshows”) Consumers are a fickle lot, and if the quality is bad, can we blame them for going after the best alternative? I’m not questioning the legality of downloading from P2P, but you must take into account that to many, this is simply a alternative, and they would still buy the originals to support the series. After all, Odex produces crap, Imports are slashed to ribbons by the censors (and at times are confiscated without so much as a “by your leave”), price nonwithstanding.
I know it sounds like i’m siding the anime community, but if you think about it, it’s oth sides that have faults. ODex, for it’s poor service, and the anime fans for not supporting the series further by buying originals (although this can also be contested, considering high prices and avilability.)
I believe that Odex’s Sales losses are not completely because of the downloaders. Heck, most of the blame lies with their products, leading to consumers finding alternatives. however, the company seems to have decided to bury it’s head in the sand (or in this case, shooting themselves in the L.J seems more appropriate.) by cracking down on downloaders rather then improving their products and visibility.
Kids will be kids, they are immature, and need to be taught proper respect. However, Stephen Sing apparently has his mind somewhere back in his teens, if looking at the gloating he did. Just because he has the legal right to prosecute, doesn;t mean he gets to lord it over us. Yet he did, and now he’s paying for it with the company’s bad PR, death threats against his family etc. i can;t exactly blame the kids, but the threats are definately over the line. and after that news report of his gloats, i can hardly blame the kids for reacting like this either.
Issues like IP, are hard to tackle mainly because of several factors.. User Population, Quality(in Odex’s Case), Privacy Issues from ISPs( Such as in the U.S, europe, and until recently, Singapore. In short, tackling online piracy is like having a mountain of laundry that keeps piling up no matter how fast u wash it.
I agree with u tt flaming is plain childish and there are plenty of childish flaming over at HWZ. Flaming ought to stop as it is giving the anime community a bad name and the newspaper will continue to make SS looks as though he is a victim when he is actually at fault himself.
Piracy is indeed wrong and we ought to protect intellectual property in singapore or anywhere else in the world. but the method odex used to enforce this is really questionable. unlike previous cases involving Mp3 (RIAA) or movie, ppl are served with a warning first. If they continue with their act and get caught, i only wish they were served a heavy fine. but for the odex saga, no warning was issued. “Fine” or a better term settlement fees of 3k to 5k were demanded straight away. as u can see from numerous threads, most ppl dun even know wat are licensed wat are not and there are kids who think copyright is a word plucked out from a science fiction book. To a lot of anime fans out there, this indeed feel like a massacre.
hope the anime fans can show their unity and more imptly maturity and show to Odex tt they are indeed repentant and deserve a 2nd chance.
At least when you’ve warned already but they still download. In this way, they are finding problems for themselves.
Its a massive demand, 3k - More than a month salary. Too much to swallow in, even if its for damages made that cause them to have low sales. I guess its just how it works. I really wonder what internet is used for now a days - Downloading/chatting/quick info.
Those kids that were reacting like were most likely be the ones who got the letter from odex? + Not many people know what is license. Everything have to be taught all over again. I kinda realise that many people don’t know about copyrights and about this anime thing. The problem !! is people are uploading them so frequently and it is “normal” to download it because it is there “for you “. Soon, people would think “Is it wrong to get it for free?”. Sueing those who sub them makes more sense but again, its just for the sake of better subtitle.
It is not safe to download but it do not really make sense that sales will go up to normal rate - That is how i feel for anime industry.
All i know is, everything is expensive. Even the consequences.
wow, what a long string of comments n I am lazy to read through all… but I just feel I have to add a few cents of my thought here. right now. what ODEX is doing is indeed a PR disaster, perhaps, but looking from their point of view, this is about defending their money right, I suppose.
What made them go hard after the illegal downloaders now than before is becos they found that their earnings dropped! It does not matter they may have other ways to earn their profits.. but is a matter of whether they could have earned more without illegal downloaders. For example, they could have earned $1000 if all 25 anime fans buy their DVD but becos of some illegal downloading anime, they lose 15 anime fans buying their DVDs. There is a lost of profits!
However, I dun think we can think like this so naively. It is also about copyright issues. Illegal downloading is not paying for what you are watching. It’s the same for songs, dramas, even computer softwares! Think in your own shoe if that happens.
A is not paying you for what you have painstakingly put in lotsa efforts to make… will you let him off?
Of course, I may be still naive here but we can’t blame ODEX solely for this matter.
I am more than a little appalled by the actions of Odex, especially the letters to 9 yr olds??!!
I am appalled by the state of our privacy in Singapore as well.
In my heart, I have no choice but to agree that fansubs are illegal.
But it suddenly dawned on me that Singaporean anime fans are screwed… ‘cos unless your R1, R2 DVDs has gone through the Censorship Board, they are kind of illegal as well. So the point abt buying R1 DVDs from US are kind of moot and short of migrating to US or Japan to get our anime fix, us fans can start picking up a new hobby. DOTA anyone?
Fansubs are illegal, but without them 98% of people here won’t know a shred about anime. Look at all the comic connection shops and hobby ships all around the island selling anime figurines and paraphernalia. until a few years ago there are only a few shops that sell anime stuff. Think about it. If stphen sing say fansubs are spoiling the anime market here then he is very wrong!.
Stephen sing, although there are many people that download fansubs here, i does not mean that they don’t buy the DVDs. Its just that they don’t buy YOUR merchandise because it is damm lousy. People rather spend $60 to $100 to buy better quality dvd boxsets from parallel importers than from YOU and some more they get the latest titles so much faster. If ou ask me to wait 1 year for the latest anime then i can tell you forget it.
About the things you said in the newspaper articles well, you say what you are doing is doing the anime market here a favor and that it is to prevent or revive the anime market here. Well all these is to revive YOUR MARKET not the anime fan’s. You say its bad PR and stuff but at the end you said the crackdown must continue. You might as well say that at the top of the line to end the story because in the end you had said nothing.
I share sentiments will all anime fans here and well thanks to you many young kids are going to be traumatized by your $3000 to $5000 fines. COngrats you just created generation of people who won’t bother with anime or are too traumatized by your actions to go at it again.
Oh sorry forgot to say one more thing…. Not only the anime fans here will hate you but owners of shops that sell anime stuff and comics will also hate you as well cos thanks to you their sales will drop.
Well just one more community of people will hate you.
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ODEX be hated by retailers? They have a VoD site live now at their web.
I thank God I don’t live in Singapore. LONG LIVE THE PHILIPPINES!
[...] guess I will be honest to say that my view of anime fans is deteriorating. One of the major incidents related to my coursework was the ODEX incident. I was doing some [...]
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