Yep, sure did. I even had an excellent book on the subject (”Downfall” by Richard Frank) sitting on my desk as I was typing my comment, and I STILL got it wrong. Sheesh.

“The interesting thing is though the Allies were probably going to invade in mid-1946 by then Stalin could have launched his own assault…”

Well, that’s somewhat problematical. The US specifically told Stalin NOT to invade Japan; whether or not he would have listened is another question, of course. Then there’s the problem of transportation for the Soviet invasion force… the US really was the only power on the planet at the time that could have accomplished the feat, and it would have strained the available resources pretty thin.

But IF it could have been accomplished, it’s quite possible that Tokyo could have ended up like Berlin during the Cold War. I actually wrote a paper on that very topic a few years back, and how it would have affected the world as we know it (short version: a lot fewer home computers, and almost certainly a nuclear war).

Grave of the Fireflies is among the few exceptions in the war animes that does go beyond the good vs evil dynamic. In Gundam Seed and Code Geass they simply talk about fighting for a better world and the necessity of a war to end all wars. Do you see civilians of one faction turning upon one another? The truth is that they are merely reduced to innocent bystanders which is not the case in any war. Under duress humans do terrible things to one another. Families get broken up. The sick are left to die. Children are sold, and more often or not women have to do “favors” to get daily necessities. That is what I think that anime has most often ignored there is civilian ugliness to it. When the Jews were being persecuted there was no shortage of cutthroats who extorted from them or sold them out to the Gestapo.

The Japanese may not have been evil incarnate, however their systematic rape of women alone is something that is very hard to forgive since the Japanese pretend it never happened. People have to forgive one another for the troubled past but if one refuses to admit their own wrong doings there can be no forgiveness. For some there can be no forgiveness in this life or the next there are things that people do to other people that are darker than death or night.

I am a pragmatist and for me morality is not monolithic nor set in stone. More often or not no one is innocent once their mother has left the room. Still I will fight for your right to dream.

The case that you brought up of the conscientious Japanese national being forgotten and only known by a few and going on unnamed is a tragedy in itself because his story was never told. If you want to keep hope alive I suggest doing research on your unnamed hero and bring his story to be heard.

i was attending this conference sponsored by the university’s Japanese Studies department, on Filipino-Japanese relations. the grandson of the Japanese man i mentioned was the speaker, but it seemed like a very personal matter for it to be taken out into the open. but like you, it’s a story i wish to be told. though i wonder if people (especially Filipinos, those who have the deepest scars from the Japanese in the war) are ready to accept that fact anyway.

anime hasn’t been the only reason i am like this. the first thing that got me into this kind of thinking about the war (in that it is terrible as can be well witnessed from its repercussions) was because of my Western History professor in Uni. part of his curriculum was World War II, and he opened my eyes to the fact that “not all Germans are evil” or that “things aren’t always as they seem… there is no side that is purely good/evil”, etc. (to this day, i am grateful to have ever taken his class.) anime simply showed to me that this is the case with the Japanese too. i don’t believe that every single Japanese during that time was that antagonistic, just as we’ve had Germans who sympathized the Jews, etc.

regarding your comment about war anime, can you give me a title that you have at least accepted or found tolerable as a decent image of wars? is there one, or are you accusing all war anime in general to have some kind of anti-war sentiment? i think there are some titles that are simply showing how bad war can be without hyping up any kind of foreign antagonism. sometimes i actually think that the stress is more on blaming the government for everything, blaming themselves for what’s happened, instead of castigating the “invaders”. in Grave of the Fireflies for example, it was a simple illustration of how harsh war can be, even showing how the closest of relatives can become cruel in times of extreme hardship. i do think the more important focus of those kinds of anime is the nasty after effects, to an individual, to a society, to a nation, in the horrifying immediate, and in the unfortunate long-term. because looking at them in the purest form ultimately makes you not want to have a war, which is the view everyone must share even if it is laughably impossible.

probably not exactly related but around this time last year, a CNN anchorman mentioned Germany’s relief at hosting the World Cup just to break down all those old misconceptions about Germans. you see, the stigma is still there. because of things like my history lessons, and war anime, i was able to recognize that.

@ZeusIrae

i blame my Philosophy curriculum for turning me into something of an idealist. Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas and the others are haunting my conscience with keeping a firm grip and strong faith on the insistence to uphold the should and the must.

I do think that there is a propaganda value in anime that goes beyond simply war is bad. There is some anti-foreign sentiment and it does come out. every War anime that deals with actual warfare implicitly glorifies it. The best argument against war is not always the savagery of the fighting, but what war does to a society. The post war world is the best place to showcase the scars that it gives to people, however anime does not show much of the post war but even then it serves as a back drop for more fighting.

While there are remorseful Japanese put there they are really in the minority. As for feeling the crush of this world bear in mind this has always been this way for people. People then and now still searched for a better world to our credit the slave trade is no longer seen as legitimate though it has not died out. As sad as the war itself was what is sadder in my opinion is that its lessons go on forgotten. The case that you brought up of the conscientious Japanese national being forgotten and only known by a few and going on unnamed is a tragedy in itself because his story was never told. If you want to keep hope alive I suggest doing research on your unnamed hero and bring his story to be heard.

@Wonderduck
I think you meant Operation Downfall the planned invasion of Japan. The interesting thing is though the Allies were probably going to invade in mid-1946 by then Stalin could have launched his own assault and Japan may have been cut into two ala the Koreas. As bad as the US occupation and use of the bombs were I think Stalin would have done a good number on them.

@ZeusIrae
I find the sentimental attachment to a symbol to be rather dimwitted when there is a real possibility that no one will be left to pay homage to the symbol. Hirohito is no god he bleeds just like any other man we should not excuse him from the same criticism that was leveled at the Catholic Church for not doing more. If the King of Norway could offer his abdication to give his people the option to surrender if they chose to (even if he wished to oppose the Nazis) then why was such courage lacking in Hirohito? None of the other monarchs of the time insisted upon fighting to save their thrones. Those thrones were also a symbol for their respective peoples, but only the Japanese insisted upon the symbol coming before the people. Hirohito did not abdicate after the war he stayed on, obviously he felt no real responsibility for the debacle or he didn’t really give a damn. The Japanese Imperial Line is not continuous there were outside parties that fucked with it before so why in the hell should they be excused for insisting and claiming that reason as if it was a rational thing to do?

I am very critical of Hirohito and I will never allow his “godhood” to excuse him for his actions or lack there of. Symbol or no symbol if it means the death of a people for just this reason only it is not worth it. If they chose to value life so cheaply for such a cause then they ought to have no right to play victim now and falsely proclaim that they were innocent victims. If they were willing to die for the throne there should be no reason for them to bitch and whine if the Allies simply obliged them.

As for Zipang I have never read it. I don’t think there is an English translation of it.

Crusader’s post was a necessary reminder that all things are not nice and pretty in Japan.Western anime fans have a tendency to forget it and idealize it(some teachers give me some really scary stories).So sometimes,it’s necessary to remind people that it’s a normal country.

“He did not offer abdication as a means to end the war, it dragged on so that he could keep his throne.”
The imperial throne was always an extremely symbolic matter.I don’t think we can merely reduce it to a problem of moral courage.
I think the consensus is partly responsible because it ensured that no decisions could be made without compromise.For exemple,it was impossible for Yamamoto to go to the Imperial palace and say “this war is suicidal,stop it now”.It would never have worked.So the extremist(or the fools)were naturally favored.Decisions always took the past of least resistance.

Oh,I wanted to ask,cruasder.Have you read Zipang?

No, nor should they. It was WAR, Anonii. Not a local thing like Iraq, but fullblown, all-out, no holds barred, no quarter offered or given, war. If Japan, Germany, or the Soviets acquired the bomb first, they wouldn’t have even considered not using it.

It’s easy, not to say facile, to look back from a distance of 62 years and say “oh, that was bad, we shouldn’t have done that.” Simply put, the times and the situations were different, in a way that’s almost impossible for most to comprehend in 2007.

Besides, Crusader’s thoughts aside, using The Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was quite possibly the best choice of the three plans on the board to end the war (though that should probably read ‘the least bad’). Invasion would have killed or wounded hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers and sailors and millions of Japanese troops and civilians. Blockade and the attendant destruction of the Japanese road, rail, and harbor network would have brought starvation and famine to millions of civilians (indeed, it took a massive influx of food from the US military to prevent just that after WWII ended anyway).

If you had the choice, which would YOU choose? And no, ‘none of the above, I’d negotiate’ is NOT a choice.

(personal note: My grandfather was in one of the first divisions scheduled to hit the beach during Operation Overlord. Knowing that my father wasn’t born until shortly AFTER WWII ended, I fully expect that I wouldn’t be here if Overlord occurred.)

And it’s even A LOT MORE SAD that people are still game, for war.

Evil becoming a necessity. Are we all really set on killing ourselves? Is peace and diplomacy merely a fantasy?

For the record, while the world is still in pieces, I have liked many WW2/war-themed anime, not because of the anti-American sentiment if there was any shred of it in the medium, but simply because time and time again it is insisting that war is BAD and must not be done. I have also liked the vehement stress on peace and the extinction of war. There is nothing wrong with that, or is there?

Everything in this post along with the comments (about the inevitability of superpowers having their fingers itch on the trigger) has just blown out all hope and optimism for a better world with people getting along. (Unless there is something you have to calm me down with.) It is not at all comforting this speculation a bunch of you are having about the Northern East Asian countries rising up each other whether for or against the US. Those are enough to cause anxiety and stress, but it is made worse when coupled with the fact that the US still have enemies to deal with in the form of the “terrorist nations”. Is the world really geared towards a road to war and total destruction?

A thought on the side… has the US ever acknowledged that while it was indeed necessary to go through with the bombings, has it ever acknowledged that they were bad? Or would remorse for the deaths of the truly innocent nullify the necessity (or whatever moral good) of those bombings, hence they would rather not show any sign of sorry. That’s just really sad.

I would also like the point out that there was a Schindler-type of Japanese man here in the Philippines. He had a family, before the war he took a Filipino wife and adopted her children. During the war he was made guide or translator, but he made it his mission to find ways to save the natives, sometimes even defying his own countrymen and risking his very life. He had to separate himself from his family because of the danger he drew to them. Just a few weeks before he died many years later, it was only then that he got reunited with them.

And you know, there really are Japanese out there who are truly remorseful of what they have done in the War. And this is coming from a Filipino.

One of the most telling things about the Second World War was how the Germans were viewed as opposed to the Japanese. While the SS was hated and ridiculed even by the Old Guard of the Wehrmacht, the Wehrmarcht was for a significant portion of the war treated with respect by the Allies. The German General Staff and the average Wehrmacht soldier was respected and admired by the Allies because they were the epitome of being professional soldiers. Even today there is a begrudging respect for them because they did try to remain apolitical and for the majority of units they did not partake in the actively in the persecutions. They had the tactical finesse and were very flexible and innovative.

The Japanese soldier was pretty much hated after the knowledge of how they treated their enemies and civilians became known. Respect today is largely limited to their use of light infantry tactics, but their glaring lack of tactical imagination, archaic doctrine, emphasis on trophy kills and strategic oversight stand out.

I agree that the use of atomic weapons in anger really did raise awareness of how dangerous these weapons were.

As for defeat being the worst thing in total war, I find that winning it doesn’t make you much better off. China was counted among the victors, but after the war they had a civil war and ended up with +50 years of communism with The Great Leap Forward, and the Cultural Revolution. Poland was a victor and was abandoned in the end to Stalin. The rapid recovery of Germany and Japan was in part due to having to rebuild infrastructure thus they used the latest technology. I find that political apathy is probably the worst thing for a nation because when that happens the crazies take over.

@Fuse01
While it is true that the Military did control the Japanese school system, I feel that it has really been up-played as a crutch to absolve people of personal responsibility for their actions. Kids joined the Hitler Youth but after their defeat they did try to make amends because there was a level of personal responsibility for what they did. The Military was a significant part of German Society up to WWII since prior to WWI men were drafted into the military and one of Germany’s advantages in the First World War was her ability to call up reserves faster than anyone else. The Prussian military officer caste endured as did the old military tradition. The thing is that the Wehrmacht tried to become a state within a state, the Japanese Military chose to take over and dictate. It was the old guard of the German General Staff that were wary of the Nazis because they were afraid that war would be disastrous for Germany because they realized that they were not ready for it.

While kids go to school every day does that make every one of them compliant? I think not since you will have drop outs, you will have those kids that refuse to conform. Yes there were consequences to it, but why did teachers choose not to subvert military directives? The Japanese secret police was known more for random brutality rather than methodical operations, the only reason why they got any Soviet spies because Stalin sold them out. The fact that the Japanese military hierarchy did breakdown with insubordination of junior officers leading to catastrophes, and enlisted men running amok indicates that blind obedience was not the order of the day despite the rhetoric of “we just followed orders.”

Stalin knew about the bomb and the end of the non-aggression pact was a forgone conclusion since Stalin was starting to stake claims. By stripping down their forces in China they were vulnerable to a mechanized army sweeping down from the north since there was not much in the way of restrictive terrain. The USSR had no reason to stay out of the war once Germany was defeated. I find it rather dimwitted to believe that the Soviets would honor their agreement with, Stalin leading no less, given their strategically and tactically inferior position. The Soviets had already slapped the Japanese Army around in Mongolia so there was no myth of invincibility to overcome.

The firebombing was more of a concern as was the drastic reduction of shipping routes. However the atomic bombs did bring home the fact that Japan was now really technically inferior to the Allies. Japan had already fallen behind in armor, radar, small arms, and aviation. While they had prototypes they did not posses any in quantity or in battle worthy condition. Okinawa was a dry run for the invasion of Japan since it had a civilian population and was an area where the Allies had hoped that civilian cooperation was forth coming as the Ryukyuans were ethnically distinct and had resisted Japanese their overlords in past. The fact that the Allies entered a bloodbath was very convincing to some Allied Commanders that the invasion of Kyushu was going to have a greater death toll for both sides. If your best case scenario fails then what hope could the Allies hope for in the worst case scenario?

“Fog of War” really was a cold analysis of war reducing the human cost to a mathematical calculation.

@ZeusIrae
While their was no overall master plan the idea was that the conquest of China would be piece meal. However the rhetoric changed when the US started to apply pressure. There was a Japanese boast “that Shanghai would fall in three days and China in three months.” Thanks to the actions of the 400 NRA troops who formed the rearguard that boast fell out and it did prove that if the playing field was more level China could hold her own. Japan did have designs on Siberia and the South Pacific after the US oil embargo.

It is sad that the failure of the 1936 coup is largely forgotten since it did prove that the civilian government and the Emperor could quash a political coup if they chose to. The fact that the slide into having Generals and Admirals in civilian positions was relatively smooth is quite damning since it did not have to occur unopposed. Hirohito was not a leader of men he was a throne hugging coward in my opinion because he did not want to risk his throne even if meant saving his people or averting a war that Japan could not afford. He did not offer abdication as a means to end the war, it dragged on so that he could keep his throne. Just because he allegedly remained silent does not absolve him of responsibility, thus there is some veracity in wanting to have him hang at the end of the war.

I don’t think that consensus is the primary problem. I think that they do have differing opinions, however because they are not vocal about it political apathy is a great danger. Any one can see that rattling sabers is not the smartest thing to do at this time. However I think that Abe’s government is arrogant for thinking that the world will be receptive to having her having a more active military. The Far East is generally opposed to it, only the Taiwanese crazies are for it. If Japan takes a greater role there will be consequences to foreign interventions as the US, Europe, Russia, and the West have found to their cost. Being a great power has a cost there is no free ride. Collective responsibility goes beyond personal responsibility it entails the moral courage to try and further the healing process and prevent a repeat of the disaster.

@DrmChsr0
There are days that I feel that all the fanatics of this world must feel the nuclear fires of retribution. However I agree with ZeusIrae in that Japan cannot throw around military power with little opposition. China is coming to superpower status though internal problems need to be addressed in a more acceptable manner for world opinion. China can afford to have a larger navy. South Korea has a powerful military in her own right and is trying to increase her own navy. North Korea is in desperate straits and may lash out before collapsing. The decline of North Korean and the increase of Chinese and South Korean military power means that Japan is not the biggest fish in the pond. Besides the South Korean Marines boasted a 25 to 1 kill ratio in favor of the ROKMC during the Vietnam debacle, they could shred Japanese divisions that have no combat experience, besides their areas of responsibility are very safe. China has a lot of playground for her military, Japan barely has a firing range in comparison.

The US is not going to bail out Japan if it means going to war with China unprepared. Given the strain of having US troops in Japan if Japan chooses to kick the US out and go her own way the China-Taiwan conflict may take a back seat. The US can simply strengthen ties to South Korea since if war does come South Korea does not want it to spill over and the US would dearly like to see how Chinese arms stack up to US and Japanese arms if Japan becomes hostile to the US. I would not put it above the CCP to give more leeway to Taiwan if she feels threatened by Japan. It be a good time to rouse up Chinese nationalism in Taiwan as well since the artificial idea of a distinct Taiwanese identity separate from Chinese influences has yet to really catch on, if ever. Besides if people in Taiwan are voting for US statehood as an option in regards to the future of Formosa being Taiwanese isn’t really selling all that well.

So Japan has little hope of having a staging area for any raids on China proper let alone an invasion unless she takes Taiwan by force, the US has committed herself to helping and defending Taiwan. World opinion will go against Japan in a heartbeat if she invades a neutral, even one that is “diplomatically isolated.” China still has a friend in North Korea. If Abe chooses war he will be in the strategically inferior position as the South Koreans won’t take lightly to fighting so close to their backyard. South Korea now has the military power to prove her point. Hell the US could just move the 7th Fleet elsewhere since Japan is not the only strategic point as the Russian fleet is no longer of primary concern. In fact its significance has in many ways declined as opposition to US deployments in Japan has resulted in a progressively smaller presence.

New Zealand and Australia do not have a large stake in a third Sino-Japanese conflict. If they choose to takes sides it will be with opposition at home since it makes little sense to do so if Abe gives the West the finger and the distance is so vast. While there will be economic consequences Japan hasn’t actually been the nicest to Australia and New Zealand they got a gimped overpriced PS3 while the Japanese got discounts. Besides the economic consequences will not be long and drawn out since other rising economies can fill the gap, sending in troops for such a minor reason won’t sit well.

Abe can teach patriotism all he wants because he lacks the means to make people listen. It will be a waste of resources to teach love of Japan since love is something you feel not something taught in a classroom. I oppose nationalistic teachings because it is a waste and is not conductive of rational thought. Being a patriot is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it. Abe to me seems confused about the difference between the government and the country. Besides with a dropping birthrate that shows little sign of slowing Abe doesn’t have much of a generation to throw into the crucible of war. Abe is not a military threat so much as what he is doing is militarily stupid. Bad economy, dropping birthrate, young people without homes of their own, and much more ought to worry him. Alas he only sees that which is outside and not the crumbling house within, one day the floor will fall out from under his ass if he does not change.

The textbook issue and general Japanese ignorance to a very trying time for the rest of the world is worrying. However the threat is not so much military any more as is their inability to eventually integrate into a world culture if they remain ignorant about every one else. Because WWII is ignored they are missing out on the discourse of the issues that it did bring about and the world that it ushered in.

@afreaknamedpete
I would like your input on this, if you have the time.

I wouldn’t be so pessimistic on the evolution of Japan and its society.

Personnaly,I believe that the post-1945 is a peaceful nation and there’s no reason to believe it will regress.

One obvious reason is that political situation in the near and long-term doesn’t allow it.The imperialist Japan benefited from a special and short period where China was weak.

It doesn’t mean that Japan won’t be involved in a war in the future.But I believe it would be a war imposed by the circumstances rather the result of an agressive and imperialist policy.

Even today,a large part of the japanese society doesn’t like the idea of having an “official” army.

However, while talking from a military perspective, you truly forgot about the education system from 1945 onwards.

Numerous editing of history textbooks so that it either talks about Japanese victory or the civilian cost of the bombs, pro-Japanese propoganda, and what have you, they are brainwashing the new generation of Japanese to reignite the fires of war. And this has been reported on many times recently.

Fortunately, all is not lost. Most of the Japanese still oppose war, and it seems like there will be quite a lot of backlash if Abe were to trudge ahead with his inane plan. Of course, one can only hope.

Also, there are Christians in Japan. Not much, I’m afraid, but that’s more than enough. I plan to go over there and help them as soon as I can, time, money and the Divine willing. Where there are Christians, there is hope, and we need a lot of it if we want to avoid a World War 3. Of course, we all know better… … …

Oddly enough, half the time, I would approve of another round of nukes on Japan. While I do believe Japan has changed, half of me knows better. And that’s not just because they make some of the worst porn in the world (This is a truth). I have been rather fortunate to have some schooling in History, not just general stuff, but also in recent history from the Russian Revolution onwards to the fall of communism, and while I think the education system here is geared towards making the new generation of ministers (we have no lack of that here), and while they did not mention in full detail the firebombing of Japan (it was a mere mention, what did you expect, I was only 15/16 when I took this subject), I do know that the Japanese would fight to the last man should they be invaded. I also know that the Japanese sentiment has really not changed, but merely sugarcoated through the positive portrayal of Japan’s economic success, animé and the like.

While I do like Japanese food, animé, and the more positive aspects of their culture, I still heed the advice of the older generation, the ones who actually experienced the horrors of the Japanese invasion.

Just like a leopard neer changes his spots, Japan’s sentiment towards the West has not changed. Sure, Abe may not visit Yasakuni in the forseeable future and wants to make miltary alliances with China and the West (the ‘official’ media reason for Abe wanting that treaty changed and abolished, it would be a sad day if he does realize that that treaty is vague enough to interpret it any way he likes), but the elders here know better.

We all must be watchful of Japan, for we might be caught with our pants down (and penis erect). Stay vigilant, and carry a big gun.

(For the record, Crus, I am from Singapore, one of the countries occupied by Japan in WW2, so I know my stuff. It’s freakin’ everywhere here. Even if I did hole up and not go out, I still have my education.)

You talked about a failure of the military command,that’s of course one part of the story.But I am curently reading a book precisely on the japanese foreign policy before WWII.

It’s quite clear that it wasn’t only the army that are responsible for the mess.Since the “black ship” in the 1860s,japanese were paranoïd.

At one point,the politicians(not only the army) decided that mandchuria was necessary for the survival of Japan.The problem was that japan had no legitimacy to occupy mandchuria and the chinese governement(or what was left of it after 1911)would oppose it.

So after “securing” Mandchuria in the early 30s,the Kantung army became the northen china army,then the central china army unti it reached south china and invaded Indochina.

It wasn’t only the soldiers who were responsible for this.It’s the whole policy that didn’t make any sense.The politicians were as convinced as the soldiers that mandchuria was vital.

Invading and occupying China was never in the plan.It just……happened.Because the japanese had no policy,they didn’t know what to do.

The young ultra-nationalist officers of the Kantung army made it worse by launching “incident” that discredited completely the diplomats.But they only did it because the civilian leadership allowed them to get away with it.The moment the ultra-nationalist tried to take power in Japan,they failed.

That’s the crazy thing,Japan’s policy wasn’t the product of few crazy ultra-nationalist people,it was the product of relatively moderate people who took decisions by consensus.The result was a disaster.

The worst is when you realize that they still use this style of government today.It seems that in Japan,consensus is sacred,it’s almost a religious myth.

So,I completely agree with you.The idea that only a few crazy generals who deceived the people are responsible for WWII is ridiculous.It’s a sad story,but the whole country or at least its intellectual and political elite is responsible for WII.